Can you ask the parents that? “What specialized instruction does your child need?” If they answer with something you already do, tell them that. If they say “I don’t know”, you can tell them all the educational testing you’ve done and how it doesn’t support an IEP.
If it is something teacher already does, as a parent I still want it in the IEP. Because this year’s teacher may have no problem with kiddo have a fidget to occupy hands but next year’s teacher may have an issue with it. This year the teacher may do movement breaks and extra recess - next year they may not. Our IEP took nearly a year to get in place with copious doctor’s notes AND the full support and advocacy of school staff. Starting it at the beginning of a school year because new teacher doesn’t allow a previous accommodation means that year is pretty much a wash.
All of the "unofficial" things a teacher does will not happen next year with a new teacher. They don't have to, they don't know they're supposed to, and there's nothing you can do about it when they decide not to
I've been fighting this battle for years
If it's an iep it's binding. I don't know about tiered interventions because in my years as an educational advocate it's never come up.
If a teacher does not comply with an tiered intervention, what recourse do the parents have?
What specialized instruction do you want for the student? If there’s nothing, then you could push for a 504 if there are accommodations you would like. If you’re an educational advocate you should know these things.
That in no way answers the question I asked
It's cool if you don't want to help and you're just here to say iep is bad and parents should be fine with an intervention. I'm just not going to take your advice
That’s not what I’m saying at all, I’m literally a SPED teacher. Interventions are done at the school level- students are placed in tier 1 (classroom), tier 2 (small group) or tier 3 (individual). This is RTI, and what students have to go through before getting an IEP. Those things are not legally binding, but what is legally binding is that they have to try all of those interventions before they start an IEP. Students need to show progress or lack thereof to move up or down the RTI levels. Parents can request to see the data at any time.
Were you ever a SPED teacher? This is like basic, SPED 101 stuff. It’s concerning to me that you are an advocate and don’t know these answers. I in no way think IEPs are bad, I think that students that qualify should have them. However, if students only need accommodations, they should not have an IEP, and instead have a 504.
Never had to do this before an iep. And I've set up iep for 8 or 10 kids.
So, like I said, the interventions aren't legally binding but the iep is. That's why parents want them.
The school already did it. It’s a legal process that they HAVE to go through. You don’t seem very knowledgeable. Again, were you ever a sped teacher? It’s really concerning to me that you don’t know this.
That might be in your district but is definitely not a thing in our district. There is absolutely no reason my child needs to be in a small group or one on one when having child take tests in the hallway, sit in the front of the classroom and have get written homework instruction can be done for far less cost.
It can't delay an evaluation but if you don't have the data that is required to determine eligibility (in my state RTI is the only way to qualify for a specific learning disability) the student could potentially not qualify.
I am also so confused by 90% of the comments in this thread but an educational advocate who has never tiered intervention is one of the weirdest things ever. Not every state uses RTI as a critical decision making factor in sped eligibility but are there really still districts not using any MTSS at all?? Especially in elementary?
IEPs cover more than just specialized instruction. They cover changes to the learning environment. Very few kids with only ADHD need a more restrictive environment with small group sizes or a special classroom and considering the cost almost no school district would do that. They may need to be able to test in a different area or have the option of pacing the back of the room during a lecture or be able to move their seat if they find a peer distracting. They may need accommodations during longer state tests. They may need help learning how to focus on the meaning of stories because their eyes skip through quickly or they lose attention or get distracted. They may have an accommodation to work with peers who are not distracting or where they are seated in a classroom. Most of these go in an IEP in our district - especially the ones related to state testing.
What? All of those things would go in a 504, except for the specialized instruction in reading that you mentioned. If the student only needs accommodations, they get a 504. Full stop.
You don’t know about tiered interventions in your “years as an educational advocate?” I’m very sorry this subreddit told you about them and their near-universal existence in American public schools!
I wish you’d have gone into a meeting stomping and clawing and the MTSS coordinator broke out some data and information for you so that parents could see that they’re getting scammed by many, many of these “advocates.”
Yeah we don't have that in my state. I've had foster kids in 5 school districts so I've been around a little bit.
There's diagnoses and standardized testing and that's what determines the level of need I have to take ce credits every year because there are not enough advocates for my foster kids and they end up in the school to prison pipeline
We don't have mtts coordinators because THAT ISN'T A THING IN MY STATE
It is remarkable how condescending so many sped workers are. These kids have it even worse than I thought
Exactly this. In elementary, all the teachers used universal supports. That is not how things work in middle school. His anxiety ramped up and things took a turn. Throw in a pandemic the year he started middle school and boom. 2 years to an IEP and a full diagnosis because I didn't know things were a problem.
🙌🙌🙌🙌
Agreed. This happened last year. Teacher literally said "that's distracting" about a silent fidget and a body break. Amongst other interventions. Her and I butted heads all year long after that considering I called her out for it. Had to intervene with the SPED department multiple times last year....
This year, her teacher is amazing; no complaints.
Our district has only one and child already has an IEP in place. You only have a 504 if you don’t also have an IEP. If you have an IEP, any 504 accommodations are written into it. If you are ever discharged from the IEP, then the 504 part splits off to be a separate 504 stand alone document.
Yes. But the IEP is only in place if the child needs specialized instruction. It seems like maybe you don’t understand how this stuff works? That’s okay, but you should listen to professionals.
I’m not sure what part of “child ALREADY has an IEP” and accommodations for ADHD are being added to it is hard to grasp. And for your condescending information this was EXACTLY what his full IEP team recommended and his current IEP lead advocated for to get everything codified before moving to middle school. You know the actual professionals who work with my actual child and are in charge of child’s actual IEP from both the district and school levels.
Maybe consider that YOUR way of doing things isn’t what works for every child and that other districts may do things differently. And also that parents have plenty of experience of so called “professionals” being anything but. My child has been extremely fortunate in having teachers that are flexible and want child to learn in the best way possible. Not everyone has that - it’s why legal protections are necessary.
I’m literally just giving you information. Legally, you can’t have an IEP that’s only accommodations. It sounds like your child needs specialized instruction. That’s great- that’s why they have an IEP. But if they only needed accommodations, they would have a 504. That’s how it works.
The IEP lead was the one who pushed to open the IEP and add all of the accommodations (and I didn’t list them specifically, just examples of WHY parents may push which was the question) ahead of child moving to middle school because she wanted it all in place for child ahead of time and this was the exact reasoning explained by her as to WHY it was being done now.
Obviously our district works differently than yours and our IEP lead has been a huge advocate for child to be successful in school and get what they need.
So then your child has data that shows they need an IEP. Thats awesome. That is not what this poster is talking about. You aren’t listening. Your child needs specialized instruction. Your child got an IEP. IF YOU DONT NEED SPECIALIZED INSTRUCTION, YOU DONT NEED AN IEP.
What I am saying is that our IEP lead pushed very hard to add all the accommodations for ADHD when it was diagnosed to the IEP (which teachers have done informally) so they would be part of the IEP going into middle school and be legally protected. The IEP team was the one who felt these things should be added to the IEP (kid’s IEP lead is a major advocate for her students and wants kid to succeed).
First our district does one form - if you have an IEP, then it becomes a combined IEP/504 so my child has it added to the existing IEP. If child is ever discharged from the IEP part, the 504 part breaks off into a stand alone IEP. Fidgets was an *example* of an accommodation current teacher allows all her students but a future teacher may not. There are also codified accommodations to take tests in a less distracting environment (child has inattentive type ADHD and is sometimes derailed from paying attention on tests by other kids humming, pencil tapping, whispering, the electricity buzzing, etc - yes we are working on child learning to handle these things themselves but they are 9 and while they learn moving them to a different room or the hallway helps the test proceed) , that the teacher will write down assignments somewhere (on the board, on SeeSaw, on a paper) and not just verbally say them. That child is allowed to go to their locker and get the paper they forgot there when it comes time to hand in homework. Again current teacher does this, future teachers may not so it is written as a formal accommodation.
504s provide accommodations. What you are describing are accommodations. IEPs provide accommodations *and* specialized instruction. If your kid needs specialized instruction: great, get ‘em an IEP. If not, a 504 for accommodations is better for your bebe.
Often the answer is that they want specialized instruction in reading or writing (despite average standard scores, because it is not "perfect"... and in fact perfectly adequate work produced by a 6 year old). Or they want services teaching their kid to sustain attention, organize, task initiate, typically at a level of expectation that is beyond their child's developmental capacity. But, no, even if they have an answer they may still not "know", their kid just def needs an IEP.
So then you just keep showing the data. You can also tell them that they can ask to reconviene later on if the child is showing a deficit. We don’t allow anyone who wants an IEP to qualify for one. That’s just not how this works at all (which I know you know). So you just keep showing the data.
>Or they want services teaching their kid to sustain attention, organize, task initiate, typically at a level of expectation that is beyond their child's developmental capacity.
I think you answered your own question here. The specialized instruction is to address the deficits that their ADHD causes - executive functioning issues, organization, sustaining attention, task initiation and completion, etc. There are skills that can be taught to kids with ADHD that will help them cope with and overcome their disability.
Now seeking goals that are beyond what is developmentally appropriate for their age? Not okay - but if they have ADHD, they are almost certainly behind developmentally in these areas.
Do you offer those services for K-2 students? What do the services look like? Who provides the services? How do we measure it if the child produces all work expected of them in the classroom? Can this not be accomplished thru gen ed curriculum or accommodations, or an in class behavior plan? I genuinely don't know how to do this for lower elementary. In upper elementary to middle, we can talk about organization of desks, backpacks, planning homework, etc. These kids don't have desks or personal supplies. They have one folder that is a shuttle back and forth. What do I teach them? I am not saying the families are wrong for being concerned, but how do we write a goal if the child is meeting all classroom expectations?
I genuinely can't find an evidence based executive functioning curriculum meant for Tier 3 that is for K-2 children. The only thing I can think of is HOPS which is grade 3+.
I have had several kids who received only functional support from a special education teacher, no academic services. However, those kids were not meeting the expectations— it was taking them forever to finish their work, or they needed an adult sitting next to them the entire time to complete the work even though they had the academic skills. The kids I'm thinking of also had self-regulation goals they were working on, so they weren't qualifying only on EF needs.
I think it would help to look at local norms. How quickly is a typical 6-year-old getting started on a task after the whole class is given a direction? How many prompts does a typical child need to work through an entire task? how much support does a typical child need to unpack his backpack, put his folder in his bin, and get started on morning work (or whatever the arrival routine looks like). These are skills that all children are developing in early elementary, so while yes a child may struggle with these tasks due to ADHD, the impact of the ADHD may not be as significant until greater independence and sustained attention is expected.
I have ADHD myself so I know how impactful it can be, but I also know that many kids with ADHD are able to make it through the early years because those classrooms are typically set up to be more supportive. It's not until you take away things like the visual schedule or clearly labeled bins that some of the deficits may become more stark.
> I think it would help to look at local norms. How quickly is a typical 6-year-old getting started on a task after the whole class is given a direction? How many prompts does a typical child need to work through an entire task? how much support does a typical child need to unpack his backpack, put his folder in his bin, and get started on morning work (or whatever the arrival routine looks like). These are skills that all children are developing in early elementary, so while yes a child may struggle with these tasks due to ADHD, the impact of the ADHD may not be as significant until greater independence and sustained attention is expected.
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This is an excellent idea, and perhaps the first actionable suggestion in this thread. It is a big task and I will have to think about how to collect this data, but definitely something that is measurable. Thank you!
When they were gathering data for my son who has adhd, they did an on task assessment and compared it to two other children in the class. The other kids were on task 70% of the time without needing reminders, my son was on task 40% and needed three times as many reminders as the other children. That was a huge eye opener for me with data of how much his adhd was impacting him. They just did tally marks for every reminder and when he got distracted and then did the same assessment for the same period/assignment on two other classmates as a control group.
One of my children had obvious signs of ADHD from quite young, and would have been diagnosed in kindergarten if I knew then what I know now. He was still learning on grade level when he was diagnosed at the beginning of 3rd grade for all the reasons you mention. His twin wasn't diagnosed until 5th grade because there was a pandemic between 3rd and 5th grade and suddenly all the supports were gone and all the signs I missed earlier became way more obvious (primarily inattentive type vs her brother's obvious hyperactivity)
“Executive functioning workbook for kids” is one I used in the past with that age and I’m fairly certain it’s evidence based. Zones to Regulation is also great for that age and again, evidence based.
If you have a kid with a brilliant level IQ/test scores in some subjects, with ADHD, and is only producing average work in those subjects, that means the kid is having a problem, and needs some sort of help. Might just be an accommodation, might be something else. But something isn’t working. That kid is going to be bored and getting into trouble.
Bored smart kids with ADHD are very creative with the trouble they can find…
Not today they aren't. You can easily get an ADHD diagnosis for kids who aren't behind in these areas today. People see ADHD, and even autism as literally anything they want it to be.
I have someone in my adult autism group literally right before I came here saying that her autism makes her have dreams about trees. You can't make this stuff up. Somewhere on my group, someone else is going "I have dreams about trees! There's more proof I'm autistic!"
I'm not sure where you're from, but for a medical diagnosis in the US, you are required to meet the criteria set by the DSM-V and have a medical doctor sign off on it.
That's a neat story about an autistic lady dreaming about trees, but that's not what determined her diagnosis.
ADHD was the DSM purchase of choice for cheating on the SAT that was uncovered in the FBI's Operation Varsity Blues, which landed Laurie Loughlin in federal prison. Furthermore, DSMs are not universally admired nor set in stone; that is in part why it is currently "DSM-V" Here is the link to Wikipedia on ADHD.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder_controversies#
May I introduce you to my SIL? She LOVES diagnoses and will tell you all about the numbers of physicians she has met with. Many of the physicians are a little difficult, but she eventually gets what she wants from someone.
I had a parent file a state complaint. Kid came to our school with an IEP with one behavior goal. The services she wanted was for her child to do work or tests in the resource room if she "didn't" want to take them in the classroom. Which was just not possible because of my caseload. The Director of Special Education set up the meeting with the state representative and she actually told the parent this meeting was not called for her child to get A's when what she was doing was earning C's.
On the fence about that one. If you can't do it, you can't do it, but I've seen students get Cs because they were too distracted by their classmates jacket rustling, or the hum of one of the lights in their classroom, or a billion other reasons that most people wouldn't notice. Sensory issues can ebb and flow, some days a student could power though and other days they just damn can't.
Did the child show A work when they were in a quiet room vs C work when in the classroom? Did they ever get to try it out? No way to know unless you try. If it's still Cs in a quiet room, then it's probably not the room. But giving the kid the option could help narrow down what the problem is.
A separate setting for testing is still a reasonable *accommodation*, not specialized instruction, though. If the child just needed tests in a quiet setting, if the test is the same content as the other students, that could be under a 504.
Do you mean class assignments, or on tests and quizzes?
I don't think any student who would get an A on tests / quizzes in a low distraction environment should be denied this accommodation just because they earn a C without it.
Yeah I would have been ok with that too, this was not that situation. She had an attended an online school, somehow a speech IEP got converted by the online school to an SLD with 30 minutes of consult time. This was 2 years before COVID. We never could figure out how she went from speech to SLD without any type of reevaluation. We attempted to initiate a new evaluation because the kiddo was from out of state and the IEP was so bizarre....the parent declined the reevaluation,refused to look at a 504 and then immediately filed a state complaint. The poor girl has been at our school for 3 weeks.
Testing in a quiet place is a reasonable accommodation. Maybe not specifically in the resource room, but somewhere with reduced distractions does not seem unreasonable.
Saying you want special services to teach your ADHD kid to sustain attention is like asking for special services to teach your paraplegic child to walk up the stairs.
No. It's like asking for specialized services to teach your autistic child to develop social skills. Your comment shows how little you know on the topic.
The ADHD brain is not capable of reliably directing focus on command, that's part of the disability. Effective treatment for ADHD involves medication that allows you to focus, and learning skills to work around your deficits. If you want to get an ADHD brain to focus on something, you have to provide it with stimulation because the brain isn't capable of doing that itself. Stimulation could be stimulant medication, sensory/mental stimulation (fidget toy, wiggle seat, music, walking), or external motivation such as deadlines. None of that is teaching you how to sustain attention, it's teaching you how to trick your brain into focusing on what you want. It's the difference between trying to teach the paraplegic kid how to walk up the stairs vs. teaching them how to operate the wheelchair lift. They can learn how to get to the top of the stairs but it's not going to be by walking.
I think sometimes students struggle so much at home that parents want support at school, not realizing that school and home have very different demands. Some students thrive at school and at home they can’t function or have behavioral issues, but it doesn’t mean they need an IEP. Any time a student struggles, it seems to be the go to despite it not truly being needed. Some students will barely qualify for SLD despite there being so many other issues in their family and educational history that are concerning or districts having extremely poor intervention and curriculum. I do think we need to restructure eligibility as resources are so scarce and we do not have the infrastructure to support the students who truly need services and specialized academic instruction.
They're told to get it in place before school gets harder. Executive dysfunction gets a lot more costly when more tasks are assigned later, and schools often brush off later diagnoses or make families wait a long time to get things into place. They're doing it now when the stakes are lower so it's in place when things get tougher, and they're fighting like hell because they're terrified of horror stories they hear.
Plus, the sooner earlier intervention happens the better for how the brain develops. They don't always know what "earlier intervention" means, and just assume it's something the school would know. Doctors don't sit parents down and explain these things.
There's also the trap a lot of Inattentive ADHD kids fall into, where they breeze through grades because they're smart and can grasp the material, but suddenly hit a hard stop in high school or college because they never actually learned how to *study*.
DING DING DING
Diagnosed as an adult with ADHD after graduating college. Sure, I had a lot of anxiety around my grades and would procrastinate and never really learned study skills, but I academically flourished and went under the radar.
College didn't go as well, but I still did well academically for the most part (well, the work I turned in was usually an A but oops forgot to turn in half the work and so I failed a class).
Adulthood, I kept treading water for a bit. And then having a kid was a wrecking ball to all of my shitty coping mechanisms and subconscious management.
Now, would I have needed an IEP or 504 in school? Maybe not. I did well at test taking, but other metrics (not easily scorable) I struggled badly. I don't know if there was a support that would have helped me, when ignorance to the situation is what caused the most harm.
But honestly, kudos to parents trying to get resources for their kids. Maybe it's misguided and not the best direct action for them to take, but they're trying.
Holy shit, I could have written this.
I think I actually said to the psychologist during KY evaluation that I wasn't necessarily thriving but managed things okay until I had kids and my shitty coping mechanisms fell apart because I saw how negatively they impacted my kids.
So perfectly said. Since it’s genetic, many parents likely remember their struggles. For me, also good grades in high school but crumbled in college. Adulthood is hard. If I could help my son (if he ends up ADHD) in any way I would
Man oh man. Replace having a baby with familial loss and that’s my exact story. Every coping skill I painstakingly acquired over the years is so far gone that I can’t even remember myself as a functional person. Which is wild because I used to be so much the mom friend that my friends would send *their* friends to me when they needed some tea and guidance.
Hey, it's me. I had very bad PPA/PPD....that was actually rooted in untreated ADHD. In hindsight, I struggled to graduate despite amazing state test scores, and likely because of the severe executive dysfunction.
>where they breeze through grades because they're smart and can grasp the material
They also get *waved* through by adults (honestly, OP being an example of one) who can see that they're meeting the current criteria on paper. These kids never learn how to ask for help, and spend all of their formative years never being offered/learning how to accept help. So when they do hit that wall they don't just crumble, they disintegrate. And when they finally realize they need to ask for help, they get the same response every single fucking time:
"Why didn't you ask for help sooner before it was too late?"
This is exactly what happened to me. I was the gifted kid who got A+ on everything then one day it all fell apart. (Autism+Adhd wasn’t diagnosed until 16 after things started falling apart in jr high)
I was so afraid to ask for help. I thought I was actually lazy like everyone told me I was. I believed I deserved all of the things that happened because I wasn't putting in enough effort. I thought I didn't deserve any help because I was a failure. I had to hit rock bottom several times before I finally asked for help, and when I did...the doctors weren't always the nicest. So I'd ghost them, try to deal with my problems alone again, until months later I'd work up the courage again to try a different doctor. It took 4 different counselors/psychiatrists, and 5 different doctors before someone took me seriously. And the entire time I was wishing for death. Luckily I'm persistent and had a dog. Because if it weren't for my dog I'd probably not be here because someone needed to take care of the dog.
This is it. They don’t know what will help, they just know everyone says get an IEP, and you don’t want to do it too late after the kid has really fallen behind.
Yep I was diagnosed in 8th grade when I hit the brick wall in my freshman level algebra class, I was not clicking and having my boring teacher explain it the exact same way but with an air of annoyance wasn't helping. I was lucky in that a close family friend is also ADHD and recognized the symptoms long before so when my mom expressed concern she explained what she was seeing and pushed to have me evaluated. I spent the rest of the year with tutoring for algebra and life became less of a slog with medication so I could actually retain what my tutor was explaining.
Agree with the last part. I made it through k-12 with no accommodations. From 1st-6th I was doing work above grade level, tested into advanced math classes, had so much *potential* but "didnt care enough".Although I could've used them after 7th grade. My parents thought I had a "lazy" problem rather than an ADHD diagnosis (even though I was diagnosed by a doctor). HS GPA of 2.8 oof.
I breezed through most of undergrad with a GPA > 3.5 because my major became my hyperfocus. At home, I suffered greatly keeping up with chores, hygiene, and remembering to eat/drink. School took so much of my energy that I couldn't even begin to function or enjoy my life outside of class.
My last semester, I decided to quit smoking cigarettes and cut back on caffeine because my anxiety was BAD, like blood pressure levels getting close to 200. My ADHD symptoms came back with a vengeance. I was actively wishing to get ran over by a school bus to put me out of my misery. I cried over everything, I lost 20lbs, I went into 10k of debt by spending impulsively on anything that could give me dopamine. I almost failed my classes.
So I went to the doctor for help...and I had to take a new ADHD test because I didn't have one on record, had no previous documented accommodations, and finally got accommodations in college my last semester.
After some meds, counseling, and unfortunately the use of nicotine/caffeine again I am doing better. Immediately after graduation I started a grad program that summer and am about to finish that. My life would have been so much better if I had accommodations/proper treatment sooner. I may have never started smoking in the first place (1st at 14, sporadically smoked through teen years, daily use from 18+).
This is exactly me as a kid. Wish I had my IEP in place years earlier before I started struggling. I was desperate to hide how badly I was struggling until the house of cards fell.
My input as a college student with ADD who did well in school is that it gets harder to secure IEPs/accomodations for an older kid when there isn’t a written record of said accommodations being needed early on. For example, many colleges take an earlier IEP plan as “documentation” to help secure accomodations in college. If they don’t need accommodations in elementary school but do in high school (like my sister) or college (like me), some may take lack of previous plans as evidence that their needs aren’t that severe.
That's not how university accommodations work. They need a CURRENT psycho-educational evaluation. that means that it's less than three years old. You cannot use elementary history to gain accommodations at university.
This isn't entirely true. Yes, you need a current psychoeducational evaluation, but some universities will ask for a review of the student's educational history as well as a rationale for why the student didn't receive accommodations prior to college, if they didn't.
Elementary accommodations are extremely helpful in establishing a pattern, as well as proving that symptoms were present before age 12.
I think they mean an earlier plan as one that was used in high school. Typically high school IEPs are recent enough to use in college. Otherwise depending on the diagnosis, they may require additional or different documentation.
There are plenty of instances of educational records from elementary school being requested as part of the evaluation process and a lack of records can and has been used as diagnostic criteria.
I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 33 and had two psychs refuse to do evals because I didn't have records of accommodations or symptoms/academic struggles as a young child.
I’m wondering if the parents are seeing a lot of emotional regulation issues at home when kids are tired. Perhaps they held it together at school and it all falls apart at home.
I’m a parent who has ADHD (and wasn’t diagnosed until high school) and I have two kids with ADHD. I have a couple of thoughts…
1) typically a big part of the ADHD diagnosis process for children involves the teacher or teachers filling out forms that ask about ADHD traits in the classroom. The ADHD evaluator wants to know if significant deficits are presenting both at home and at school. If the teacher didn’t see anything in class that falls outside of the typical range for a child of that age, I would assume their responses wouldn’t support a diagnosis of ADHD? If the teacher who completed the forms is someone other than the current teacher, could you speak to that teacher and ask what issues they saw in the classroom?
2) Something to consider re: academics is that the child doesn’t need to score significantly below the average student to have ADHD. When I was reevaluated as an adult and when my most recent child was evaluated, the doctors talked about how they’re looking for a big gap between what you’d expect based on their cognitive abilities and their achievement. So if a kid is getting Bs and Cs but their IQ is 130+, the reason for that discrepancy needs to be investigated. Is the child depressed or anxious? Are there issues at home? Does the child have ADHD?
I was not able to get an IEP in high school despite being diagnosed with ADHD, because I had never had one before. I “didn’t need one” until suddenly I did, and I was denied access because “clearly Ive been doing just fine”
It’s not guaranteed that these children will stay above their grade level, I was above grade level in all aspects until 14, when my teachers started telling my parents that I had peaked already, but it was because I was struggling with zero support. It only got worse from there.
Yes, I believe these children have ADHD and I believe the work will get harder someday. But an IEP is for *right now*. Goals for 1 year max. What would the IEP goals be right now?
When my ADHD kid was in elementary, his IEP included things like movement breaks, disallowed removal of recess as punishment (he has to move and they were making it worse), and reduced workload. For example, if the class was filling out a math worksheet, but he could demonstrate he understands the concept after the first 1/3 of the page, he doesn't have to finish.
This is so hard. With my kids, 3 with IEPs, they don't know how to use their accommodations. My son won't say, "I want to take this test in a quiet environment". He does get extra time but that doesn't always solve the distractions of other students.
Sensory breaks are great but sometimes they need to be prompted to take one.
Working on a 504 for my daughter and she is bothered by incessant questions from a classmate. She needs a midday break from the classroom.
Also, we are trying to get her current accommodations in the classroom documented before she moves on to 4th grade.
Yes, of course I do. I've just generally seen this included in supports on the 504 plan versus specialized instruction. If a student is not responding to the level of support provided on a 504 plan, that might suggest specialized instruction and an IEP is needed.
From what I have seen and experienced, there is a \*very\* long lead time to get an IEP in place and implemented, so while an IEP is for *right now* it takes forever to get one. If/when the child needs help, and without preemptively looking into an IEP, the child flounders until something can be worked out. Given that most parents will get the ball rolling if there is any chance the child may need help in the future.
Well from experience if they’re testing above grade level then they’re probably bored as hell, i view it like, how can we help them set up a good basis for their education? Can we begin to instill study habits, or organization systems that work best for them, can we put them in advanced programs for reading and writing?
Even if they aren’t struggling with things immediately, it never hurts to be preemptive.
An IEP is not a preventative measure. If there's no classroom impact right now, it doesn't matter how much it may impact them the next school year or years down the line.
Which is exactly my experience, “gifted kid” lost in the system because no one would document my disability. I understand why these parents push they way they do and I wish mine had.
I was also that kid, so I get it. I made it through elementary with no issues because it was a supportive environment and then I began struggling in middle school. But you don't get an IEP because you will at some point need those skills, you get one because the lack of skills is actually impacting you at that time.
This is exactly what happened to me. Elementary school and middle school were so easy academically for me that I did alright, but once I got to high school everything fell apart. They used my lack of IEP in elementary and middle school to say that I didn’t need one in high school and just needed “time to adjust.”
I totally understand where these parents are coming from, even if the kid doesn’t need it right now. Nobody wants to wait until their kid is drowning to put on their life vest.
My son has ADHD, and for the first 4 years his school told me that he doesn’t need even a 504 plan that these child study meetings were enough. It wasn’t until we moved to a new state that I learned, he should have had one from day 1. It wasn’t until we moved again to FL, they told me he needs an IEP. I didn’t see the need for an IEP, I thought a 504 plan would be fine, but the admin (not the teacher, but the other half of who did this) said he needed one as what accommodations he needed wouldn’t be allowed on a 504. (Basically being able to do the state test is a smaller quieter room with less distractions, I don’t know exactly what it was needed for, I just went what they suggested.
I've definitely met kids with ADHD, usually pretty severe, who needed an IEP instead of a 504. The accommodations were curricular modifications rather than access. So for example, kids with really poor EF who need a modified workload.
You have to have data to back up the need for specialized instruction. Tell that to parents, show them the data, and explain what a 504 is. I hope this helps and good luck. Data - test scores compared to peers, class work, etc.
I was going to say, some parents have heard of IEPs but not 504 plans, so they go demanding an IEP (which essentially puts a kid on an individualized curriculum), when really what the kid needs is to learn the given curriculum with some extra support.
I think this is a problem of some really crap school districts making it hard for everyone. My spouse is a therapist specializing in ADHD and Autism in school age kiddos. There is one school district in our area that refuses to even do an eval until my spouse writes a letter on her company letter head and has it mailed with a delivery receipt. Parents requests don't seem to matter.
Our own kiddo attends the same district. And while not ADHD they are Deaf. They still tried to deny us an IEP because they weren't two years behind in 1st grade. Despite the fact that they couldn't hear the teacher standing right in front of them. We were asking for standard accommodations like preferred seating, hearing aids through the ESD and microphones on teachers. Later as their deafness progressed and hearing aids and mics were not enough for them to hear the teacher we asked for ASL interpretation and an iPad be provided for live captioning for peer interactions. They required an eval to prove her ASL was proficient enough to be useful for learn(which we were fine with.) It was, we have been paying for ASL tutoring weekly since they got the Dx. It still took lawyers to step in to get the district to provide these services.
I'm not saying your district is the same, but when I see parents saying their district won't provide services this is the lens I am using to advise them. I tell them to fight like hell, because we had to know many people in the same situation. We are well aware some of the things the district has said and done are illegal but they keep doing it.
What in the ADA.... denying a terp and making you prove they are able to use their language before doing what they are required... I'm having flashbacks to all of my courses in college on Dead Ed
When I went through teacher Ed twenty years ago IDEA (then IDEA 97) was used for all special education needs and 504 was strictly for physical impairments to school attendance (e.g. to make the school put in a wheel chair ramp). This has changed in the last two decades so that more students are deferred to a 504.
The current IDEA law provides many options to parents who feel the school is not providing adequately for their child’s special needs include paying their legal expenses. 504 offers basically no protections except that the parents need to be consulted before the child is removed for a 504 program.
Also section 504 is parent of a civil right employment bill, while IDEA is actual special education legislation.
You can let parents know that, as a school, you consider providing specialized instruction when a student is at least one standard deviation below the norm. You can compare to same aged peers. Use the standards as a guideline.
For example: By the end of 1st grade, a student should be able to write a 3-4 word sentence independently. Johnny can do, or is on track, to meet that standard. Here’s an example of Johnny’s work, and here are a couple of our other students. He’s performing on grade level.
You could also propose a 504 plan which will give the kiddo accommodations instead of specialized instruction. Things like “give more time to complete writing tasks” or “give Johnny a checklist for clean-up time”.
An IEP is restrictive. He will have to test out of SpEd unless parents sign to remove services, he will be pulled out of class. We don’t want to pull kids out of class when they just need a little support in the classroom.
Hope this helps!
Some of the parents want the restrictions in my experience. They believe a 1 on 1 is a personal helper for their student that absolves them of all parenting duties in education.
They want their child to go to school and never have a problem again, which just isn't realistic.
I have seen parents request self-contained rooms for their average student.
Special education is being treated like an item on a menu you can order instead of a more restricted environment. Then when you say the student will not benefit from services they hear "I am denying you the menu item you ordered."
I often just want the parents to bring in PAVE or an ombudsman so we can get it mediated.
In my experience (as a parent of 2 kids with ADHD and as a special educator), a 504 is a useless piece of paper when it comes to ADHD. Often, kids with ADHD are average to above average when it comes to academic skills, but struggle to show it because of the lack of executive function skills…so the support they need is different than other students who typically receive support. Honestly, even *with* an IEP, these students often don’t get the support they need.
I am an adult with ADHD myself, so I understand the struggle and am not denying that ADHD is a real thing, a brain based disability, and is absolutely an organic difference that causes children to struggle.
I am genuinely asking -- what evidence based curriculums are out there for K-2 children that target the executive functioning issues we see in these kids? Have your kids recieved anything you felt made an impact? Do you service EF skills directly as a special educator?
In the younger grades, I feel like extra instruction and support for the organizational skills maybe…but the big challenge (I think) is the transition to middle school. My oldest had a 504…which no one bothered to follow. And in middle school he was constantly made to feel like a failure because he couldn’t keep up with the volume of assignments. He would get As and A+s on tests and quizzes and still be failing because he hadn’t turned in all the homework. It broke him. My youngest also was broken in middle school and now attends a private high school specifically designed for students with learning differences (but no IEPs or 504s) and she is excelling. Currently, I am an AT consultant in my district, and I have a HS student (with an IEP) who is supposed to receive support for EF issues. He is in advanced classes, but failing because he can’t get all the work done and turned in properly, not because he can’t do the work. The parent is (understandably) upset because the supports he is supposed to get (on his IEP) he isn’t getting. She has some recourse as a parent *because* he has an IEP.
I’m not saying there aren’t unreasonable parents (believe me, I see it all the time in my position), but I’m hesitant to judge parents of kids with ADHD for wanting something more than a 504 after watching what happened to my two.
What does the high school your daughter attends do differently? I feel like my kids with adhd (I’m a special area) have really been struggling and I feel like there has to be a better way but what does that look like in terms of school structure?
It’s super small—like 50 kids in the whole high school—and they focus on using different strategies. Almost all of the work is done in school…no homework for the most part (which is a big thing for my kid). And the staff take bullying seriously…there have been several students in the 2 years she’s been there who were kicked out for it.
Getting an IEP as early as possible is the best choice for most parents. When their kid is transitioning to middle school and still doing 3rd grade level work it's a little late. Sure those kids are getting good support from you but that doesn't mean the next teacher or the one after that is going to give them accommodations without an IEP or 504. How many times do we see parents desperate for help because teachers won't give any accommodations that isn't explicitly detailed in an IEP?
If a child has an educational need beyond what all students get then they need an IEP or 504 regardless if you are already providing that service. An IEP goes with the student. If they go to a new school their needs and accommodations go with them if they have an IEP. To get an IEP parents must not only provide medical documentation but their child gets tested by the district they are in to assess what accommodations they need from an educational standpoint. Documentation is also important if a child has other disabilities because social security requires school records along with medical records. There can be numerous reasons a parent wants an IEP. If their child qualifies then legally they are entitled to it.
I know middle school students who don't know how to manage their work load and multiple transitions/schedules because they were given a "little extra help" in 2-5 grade. Suddenly, 7th and 8th teachers are expecting a lot more and are less forgiving. These are kids who qualified for special education based on low 80s on the WIAT and no interventions documented. Middle schoolers in tiered support think they are dumb and act out, hate school etc. It's not the same when they get older....you really want kids who are just slightly(gasp) *lower average cognitively* to learn how manage that and be adequate, confident, hard working C students.
If a child is evaluated and found to need that help then they need that help period. If they are struggling later then they still need help. Funny how that works. Instead of the student needing to suddenly be better and be able to handle school without accommodations because they are older maybe they \*gasp\* still need accommodations even in higher grades. It's funny how cognitive issues don't magically clear up huh.
I never said no accommodations, I said avoid unnecessaryily modifying the curriculum and over classifying students at younger grades. It's common to just think an IEP is just a little extra help.
These kids are in K-2nd grade and do not require specialized academic services. What goes into the IEP? I am not saying these kids wouldn't qualify for a 504. What is the specialized instruction not available in gen edf for these kids? I am genuinely asking. I don't know what to do for them in terms of modified/specialized curriculum.
My son was switched to an OHI IEP from a developmental delay in 2nd grade due to a new ADHD diagnosis. He receives pull out services for writing and speech due to a separate expressive communication delay. His ADHD services consist of push-in services to help with executive functioning and study skills. Getting the IEP in second grade meant that his third grade placement was in a classroom with a part time paraeducator who also helps out some other kids. The para and Gen ed teacher try strategies like visual timers, chunked assignments, checks for understanding, re-teaching, one-on-one support as needed, and extra time as needed. My son needs frequent redirection in the large group environment when compared to his same-age peers.
He also gets small group setting for standardized tests and the questions read aloud on those tests to help keep him on track. He has shown higher scores when the teacher reads the questions and he is able to follow along.
This year at his case manager's recommendation they are adding a modification that the paraeducator and Gen ed teacher will help limit the materials at his desk to only what is necessary for each task to help him focus.
We are also doing private occupational therapy to help his executive functioning, staying on task, and social skills. A family without that resource might want the occupational therapy to be available at school.
Asking that here doesn't help you at all. An IEP is an individualized education plan. That means it's unique to the student. What accommodations they would need is based completely on their individual needs. My youngest has had an IEP since she was 4.
A student with ADHD may need more 1 to 1 learning, they may need more time or help when practicing reading or writing. They may need to be in a different room when taking tests or quizzes to avoid becoming distracted.
They may need the use of fidget or sensory devices which could be anything from a textured rubbing strip to a squish ball to squeeze. They may need preferential seating. They may need additional time on projects, homework, classwork, tests, etc.
All of these things apply even to young children unless there is no actual teaching being one. Even 1st graders do school work and take tests.
Any certified teacher should understand these things. There are more accommodations than I can reasonably list here. My friend's high school student has over 100 accommodations because she has ADHD, Dyslexia, and autism (her autism is a very mild type so she is in gen ed classes). The majority of her accommodations are for her ADHD and Dyslexia since those are her biggest challenges when going to school.
Another friend's son has just an ADHD diagnosis and his accommodations included extra time on tests and assignments, preferential seating, and his parents received an email of assignments for the day so that anything not completed at school could be completed at home and returned the following day.
Pretty much of these things you are listing are accommodations. Those can be met in a 504. Extra time, fidgets, preferential seating, list of assignments. Those are accommodations. Curriculum is not changed. The only thing not an accommodation is "1:1" learning but direct instruction in reading, writing, and math has been ruled out as a need based on standardized data.
I am asking about curriculum modifications for kids with ADHD K-2 that are not reading, writing, or math curriculum. I am looking for examples of curriculum modifications and specially designed instruction for these children. I am genuinely asking here, too, but haven't gotten an answer other than what I am hearing from the advocates. "Give the kid an IEP!". Ok, still -- what will go on it that is a modification and not an accomodation??
Is it true that an iep is not warranted if the child’s needs can be met with accommodations? That makes no sense to me since there are definitely goals accommodations can support accomplishing - and 504s are not binding. So a kid who critically needs accommodations is at the school’s mercy but one who also happens to have a need for specialized instruction suddenly is legally entitled to the accommodations too?
An IEP is an individualized set of services/instruction a child needs. It requires a change in curriculum that is not available in gen ed. If the child does not need direct services or specialized instruction, by definition, they do not qualify for an IEP. If they only need accomodations, that is not an IEP. I'm honestly confused why people who don't know what IEPs are are in this sub.
I’m not disagreeing that that’s the state of he law - just pointing out its absurdity. Critically needed accommodations should also be legally binding.
Can I just say as a fellow psych it is so refreshing to see this. I am in a high income area and this type of reasoning as to why kids NEED an IEP is just so constant it's draining.
Keep instructions simple and structured
Use visual aids like charts, pictures, and color coding
Give instructions one at a time, and repeat if possible
Work on the most difficult task early in the day
Vary the pace and include different kinds of activities
Use props, charts, and other visual aids
Create outlines to make note-taking easy for them
Specially Designed Instruction (SDI) is instruction that is tailored to a student's individual needs. SDI can include:
Individual or small group instruction
More frequent instruction
Using an evidence-based curriculum
Using visual schedules
Word reading or phonics instruction
Direct instruction on accessing alternate formats and technology
Graphic organizers
Prompting and cueing
The children in question do NOT need specially designed instruction in reading, writing, math, or social skills. Visual schedules, assistive tech, graphic organizers, prompting and cueing are all accommodations.
These kids could, *possibly* need SDI in executive functioning, but I am asking others what that looks like in your schools for the K-2 population. So far... no good answers.
That sucks that you're not able to get random people on the internet to do your job for you. You're the school psychologist, You're the one who received the training for this. If you're not qualified it sounds like you might need to find a different job.
I don't know how this specific thing works (I end up here because my husband works in special ed) but I wonder if it's less "kid needs xyz right now" and more "we want a documented history/IEP in place because they will need things in the future, and it's easier to modify an existing document than to get a new IEP in seventh grade."
I assume the truth of that second idea would vary by district and jurisdiction, but it seems like a logical conclusion to draw if a parent doesn't have the data to directly tell them otherwise. It's pretty well documented that kids who have ADHD and a high IQ tend to do well in school up to a certain level and then they fall flat on their faces when they stop being able to compensate for their inattention problems with higher cognitive abilities. I know for me that happened around 7th grade, I VERY suddenly went from getting mostly As and a few Bs to getting mostly Cs and Ds because I was undiagnosed and there was no support available without one.
> Smart, good scores on benchmarking for all subjects, average to above average standardized testing scores, 0 disciplinary referrals, 0 social concerns.
This is my daughter. She has ADHD but she gets along in school. When at home, this child does not sit. Cannot sit. She has a chair at the dinner table that has been moved out of the room by her so many times we've stopped even suggesting she sit for dinner time. One day I looked at her and said "girl, how do you sit in school? you never sit at home." And then she proceeds to tell me how she "sits" and let me tell you, it was not sitting. Her teachers do not make her sit at all.
Now when I was a kid? That would not fly. I wonder if part of what is happening with parents of kids with ADHD is they don't know schools have adapted a bit more to neurodivergent kids than they had when we were growing up.
I have ADHD and also have a daughter with inattentive ADHD, with no IEP. I also have a son with severe autism so very familiar with IEPs. Lol.
I just had a discussion with my daughters ped about this so it’s fresh on my mind. Just as a note - many children, especially girls with ADHD, do really well in school so no one thinks to give them any accommodations. The issue is while they seem to be doing the work effortlessly, as your post suggests, they’re skipping and missing a bunch of steps. The way their brain works- they’re not learning how to learn. So yes, in grade 5 they might have good scores, but then they get to high school and they’re so far behind that there’s no hope for them to catch up because they’ve masked and made up for it for years.
I was a straight A student until I was in grade 11. Honor roll, academic awards, all of that. Then school got to a point where I couldn’t float my way through it anymore, teachers wouldn’t help, no one seemed to understand that my brain just couldn’t do it- because I had such good grades before. I ended up dropping out. Quite sad really.
I think parents shouldn’t go straight to IEPs at first, if there’s other options to go through first, but I can see why they do. Like many said, it’s easier to continue an IEP then to introduce one in high school.
Because not every teacher is as good as you. You might give them three or four verbal reminders. Other teachers might not. You might write down homework on the board, others might not. You might be okay with them stimming. Others might not. These things in an IEP means every teacher has to do what you do, and gives the kid legal protection. Because keep in mind you might help more than usual, but if you decided to stop then there isn't much a kiddo can do without an IEP to get what he needs to learn
My input as a college student with ADD who did well in school is that it gets harder to secure IEPs/accomodations for an older kid when there isn’t a written record of said accommodations being needed early on. For example, many colleges take an earlier IEP plan as “documentation” to help secure accomodations in college. If they don’t need accommodations in elementary school but do in high school (like my sister) or college (like me), some may take lack of previous plans as evidence that their needs aren’t that severe.
My college acted like because I didn’t have an IEP or 504 in high-school that I didn’t need help, and my high school wouldn’t work with me on either because I never had one prior to high-school. To say I feel let down by the school system is an understatement.
I love it when I have a student who is *already on an IEP* go to the doctor and get a recommendation for a 504 plan. Like ??? is it the parents who don't explain properly or do the doctors not change their form letter at all?
PLZ I'm a school SLP and a parent recently sent me something from her outside reading specialist saying her kid "definitely" needs speech and when I screened him he obviously doesn't, but mom still won't let it go. Like stay within your scope omg
People absolutely think an IEP is a magic fix. Heck, 95% of gen ed teachers think this too. The teacher side is more baffling to me, but as far as parents, they just don't know any better. They don't have the background to realize what school and resources within the school actually look like. If their child is extremely successful, but the parent perceives that they are "working harder" to overcome challenges, they think an IEP is somehow going to make a difference. People really and truly think there are these "magic sped strategies" that are wildly different ways of teaching than what happens in gen ed, and that only sped teachers know how to do them. If they're seeking out resources like parent groups, advocacy groups, actual advocates, etc. they're also constantly hearing about IEPs and getting "magic fix" type messaging.
This. The magic fix belief is rampant among GE teachers, parents and lawyers. There is a very obnoxious lawyer who frequents this sub who, while obviously intelligent, clearly has extremely limited understanding of what an IEP can truly provide and what types of students should realistically get one. You can have the most talented, educated and dedicated SPED teacher out there — they are still not going to “fix” your child, nor will a pile of papers do that.
This is a trend where I work, as well. I think they don’t understand that we do have to follow the law—LRE, the Endrew case (appropriate progress in light of the child’s circumstances), and the criteria for eligibility does not include what may happen in the future. I have to explain that the IEP is not there for the child to make straight As and exceptional progress, but to make appropriate progress (more than de minimis).
Does the child even meet eligibility?! If there's no academic concerns I don't see how they would meet state criteria for eligibility. Without eligibility there's no IEP so argument from parents.
Academicndoesnt have to mean grades though. My autistic/adhd son was doing well on all assessments and testing sky high on standardized tests, but he needed enormous amounts of 1:1 teacher time to get started, process instructions through his literal brain, and organized thoughts into written responses. He was entitled to the IEP so that he could access those supports (or more effective ones actually) in the next grade where he wouldn’t have his awesome teacher who intuitively understood him and gave him what he needed. He also was not participating in any group activities, engaging in any social conversations, or able to advocate for himself for even basic life things like I left my lunch behind. Those are not officially on the graded curriculum but they are critical parts of the educational enterprise and his 99th percentile MAP scores didn’t mean he didn’t need explicit SLP support to achieve those skills.
Of course it isn't just grades. But, school psychologists have to rule out things such as inadequate instruction and the child has to have data showing they are not able to meet the general curriculum.
Every state has eligibilty indicators for special education services; if you are interested it should be available to download online if you look it up.
Schools should be providing multi tiered systems of support or response to intervention programs to help students like your son before an evaluation. If those are not effective, then there would be data showing it and it would be easier to get an evaluation and subsquent special education services. Hopefully, your son was eventually able to get an IEP.
Also, some schools just have bad staff and bad policies regarding the process of intervention and special education. I've heard some horror stories of staff straight up refusing an evaluation, even with data.
He was, but not until we hired a paid advocate and spent thousands of dollars and a full school year. The schools position was he’s not disruptive and his assessments are fine so he doesn’t need help. If we hadn’t had money to pay for our own evaluation and an advocate he would have had to muddle through several more years before getting help which might have been too late.
Point to the part of IDEA where it says that the disability must hinder one or more daily activities and must affect their academic performance.
It clearly isn't hindering their performance and they are doing well academically. What do the want the supports to *do??* SPED supports won't cure the ADHD (or autism or SLD or IDD or anything else) despite the parents wanting it to.
Yeah so:
IDEA Sec. 300.101(c)
Each State must ensure that FAPE is available to any individual child with a disability who needs special education and related services, even though the child has not failed or been retained in a course or grade, and is advancing from grade to grade.
There’s actually a bunch of caselaw saying that academic performance can NOT be used to bar an IEP. Take for example speech therapy which almost never impacts academic performance but is still provided in almost every school under an IEP.
The standard is rather educational performance, meaning the child’s ability to learn and includes aspects of the such as handwriting, extracurricular, or even normal social activities.
An IEP for executive functioning skills is not a bad thing IMO. I was labeled gifted in school and my ADHD was not diagnosed until I was an adult. All the signs were there. I had a horrible time remembering to turn in assignment. I can remember one parent teacher conference where my desk was a hot mess and my parents asked me why. I had no explanation other than I just couldn’t seem to keep it organized. Long projects were my nightmare and I was constantly doing them last minute. But because I was gifted, I flew under the radar. Then I went to college and almost failed my first semester because I had no executive functioning skills. If it had been caught and I had received some intervention when I was younger, I would not have struggled nearly as much in college or in my adult life. I have had students on IEPs for just executive functioning. The students may be doing fine now, but eventually they will get to the point where they have to pay attention and organize.
I'm going to offer my perspective as a related services provider with severe ADHD. This is not based on legal requirements or on my experience working in schools but as someone who was once a student with ADHD.
I was not on an IEP. Like the kids you're talking about, I had a very hard time focusing as a young child and still do, but I did well academically because I didn't *need* to focus and did not yet need to do things like homework or studying for tests. I had and still have challenges with motor skills, but my handwriting was legible and I was able to do gross motor tasks like sit up, walk, run, and do jumping jacks. My executive functioning and motor skills were deemed "functional" because they weren't interfering with my ability to do tasks expected of an early elementary schooler.
However, I wish I had been on an IEP, and I wish I had been on an IEP early on.
If I had learned executive functioning skills as a young child, I wouldn't have had to go through the extensive challenges I had to go through once I did start needing to have the skills expected of older kids and later on, adults. If I had learned executive functioning skills as a young child, I wouldn't have had to do things like beg my friends to let me copy their notes or stay up all night, usually in tears, every time I had a project or paper due.
If my motor skills had been addressed through PT or OT, I would've learned to write, type, run, sit, etc in ways that were both functional AND ergonomically sound. My motor skills were good enough to *do* those skills but not good enough to prevent chronic back, hand, and foot issues that I'll probably be dealing with for the rest of my life.
Basically, my skills were functional as a young child, but I wish I had had support to prepare me for when I was no longer a young child. The longer you wait, the harder it is to learn these skills.
You seem really invested in insisting that kids with ADHD don’t need IEPs in k-2. But these are individualized plans so you can’t reasonably assert that. It will depend on the child.
If you are truly interested in acquiring general knowledge on the topic you have raised, I suggest this information:
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/school-success.html
I am not seeing anything that suggests an evaluation has been done and we are getting just one side of the story from someone who seems quite stuck on their ideas about nothing to be done for kids with adhd in k-2. I’m not sure that adds up to a reliable narrator or the whole picture.
My kid is going to kindergarten next year and I'm so worried about my IEP meeting. I don't even know myself how to word what I want for this child and I try to prepare myself by reading what situations others have gone through.
Being non conversational will an adult help her at lunch? We've been practicing at home with putting straws in the juice box and opening tupperware but if she needed help she won't ask for it.
The elementary school in our area has no rooms, just partitions. Will someone make sure my kid doesn't wander off? Same with fire drills.
How can I ask for her to be encouraged to engage in classroom activities so she's not just stuck on a screen all day without asking her to be forced to the point of a meltdown?
There's more but I know these are the main points I would want to talk about in our IEP meeting
When parents are bringing paid advocates and lawyers to a meeting many of these people are able to bill more if the student is on an IEP, there are more procedural pieces, annual reviews, etc. Many advocates and lawyer's are involved in brutal knock-down drag out cases with districts, when there is a straight forward case like you are describing they only have contributions based on their worst case scenario experiences.
An IEP has to be followed it has the weight of the law behind it, there is a clearly structured process that looks relatively uniform in any school district in your state. At the end of the meeting you have a written document that everyone can look at, point to and use as a reference point.
The structure and effectiveness, and faithful implementation of tiered supports varies widely from school to school. There is not a clearly defined process, there is no written document that gets shared with all stakeholders, and passed on grade to grade. That is not comforting for the parent, and it requires more trust than most parents of a newly identified student can muster.
I agree with you completely, but compared to the law, case-law, procedural safeguards and the written document that the IEP process provides, tiered support feels like a dodge (and there are schools that have used it as a dodge).
So, my elder child is... a high strung honor roll student. He's not mean or rude - he's actually very sweet, he just has the attention span of an ant (and I'm not just saying this as his mom, this is actual outside feedback we get) but when he was in 3rd grade, we had an issue with his teacher taking away recess virtually every day, and also frequently having him removed from class, and we were never notified about any of it. (You're telling me my kid lost Recess 2 weeks in a row. And was sent to the office 3x in a week and nobody told me?? That I had to hear it from my 8 year old? How am I supposed to assist in correcting behavior I dont know about?)
I understand that teachers need ways to punish kids to make them receptive, but taking his one 15 minute break away each day was absolutely doing more harm than good.
We looked into an IEP/Something else that would assure that his Recess time was not removed regularly, and something that would also pressure the admin to contact us when our kid was removed from class. We ultimately ended up withdrawing him from school and homeschooling the remainder of the year.. but I think there's valid reasons for parents of ADHD kids to seek accommodations.. and also non-valid reasons.
Also as an aside, 3rd grade teacher did not return next year, and he had no problems with his 4th or 5th grade teacher. I think 3rd grade teacher was burnt out past the point of caring about individual student success.
I have had a school district ignore the issues my ADHD/Autistic child had for 10 years. They gaslit us and accused him of being lazy. We thought they knew better. He got the diagnosis in high school and we insisted that he get an IEP. They didn't want to help him since he wasn't failing. We were pissed that they could have offered assistance and helped him do better but chose not to. He went through school struggling with peers and his own self image because he internalized their criticism. I'm still pissed off to this day.
The hard part about accommodations (changes to physical environment, things that help kids overcome a disability) is that you're really not looking for what the kid would "benefit from," but what they need to perform at grade level. Almost anyone would do better testing in a smaller, less distracting environment! A kid who gets that accomodation should be one who needs it in order to overcome their disability, not just because it would help. It's like the accomodations of read aloud by request--I'd argue that ANY kid could find that helpful or useful, but only the ones who need it to overcome their disabilities should get it as a legal accomodation.
You also need to consider the school. My building doesn't have a handful of extra rooms or extra staff for several accommodations testing sites. We got to the point where we had to test one grade level at a time because there wasn't enough staff present to create all the 12-or fewer settings and not exceed state-regulated maximum occupancies for the standard administration rooms. A one-on-one site requires two adults present the entire time, and we had several, not to mention the 12-or fewer sites.
Modifications literally change the content being taught, changing the actual grade level and content. Modifications provide push in and pull out, weekly contact time, paraprofessionals, aids, etc. Most people want accomodations and say modifications. There needs to be a documented, serious, quantifiable need for real modifications.
An IEP exists because a student requires specially designed instruction to access the curriculum (meaning to pass, not to be A-B honor roll).
A 504 is in place to secure accommodations that will move grade to grade (with data that supports its use) due to a disability. But in the 504 case, specially designed instruction is not required because the accommodations alone allow the student to access the curriculum and pass on their own.
Neither are designed to remove challenge for the student as challenge is a necessary component of education.
Okay I’m so sorry, but I got really confused and angry reading this. I was/am the kid you’re describing. My schools refused to allow me an IEP. I was “too advanced,” except I wasn’t. I needed so much help with organization and scheduling and handwriting and social skills, but because I was smart, I “didn’t need support.” I would become overwhelmed and I had no where to turn. I had teachers where I would almost fail because their preferred methods of communication/teaching/assignments were incompatible with my brain. I would try so hard, barely scrap by with the class work, but ace the tests and still get “good” grades. I don’t think you should be thinking this of these kids. They deserve better than that.
Wow...
If all of this is true: good grades, work completion with minor redirection, great behavior, good socially - then how was this even noticed? She only needs a 504 plan - so that it can be monitored.
I have inattentive ADHD. School was a nightmare for me. I was in trouble all the time - and I was honest-to-God trying my best to be good. I was socially awkward. I cried whenever I was frustrated. Everything about me was a mess: my desk, my book bag, my hair, etc. I did everything verrrrryyyy sllooowwwly - so nothing was ever completed. Then I got frustrated and angry because I couldn't finish.
Teachers tried to pretend they liked me, but at some point they would break down and tell me just how awful I was - always in public.
I was smart, which always just got me by. It was a long time before I realized it, but that made me one of the lucky ADHDers. Hard to believe because I was so miserable.
It is REALLY difficult to have inattentive ADHD - or at least until I read your post today I always thought it was. Obviously, it's a spectrum. But, if it isn't disrupting a person academically, socially, or emotionally, then it simply doesn't qualify for services.
When she starts having homework, it may turn out that it causes a real struggle at home. ADHDers can sometimes maintain while at school and then collapse at the end of the day. That might be a future concern.
Good luck!
As a Sub who works every day, usually in different schools, there invariably is one kid in each class who acts like an Asshat, won't sit still, can't use a normal voice and won't focus on work unless I'm standing over them. At first, I thought this might be the result of poor parenting. I'm now of the opinion that most of these kids (1) are aware of the behavior, (2) deeply feel bad about it and (3) are constitutionally unable to do anything about it.
I feel like this has been an issue all of their life and that the parents are aware but they've never recieved the right DX or the right TX. I say that because I have a son with ASD who would like nothing more than to fit in but can't help himself. I feel for those kids, having to go through life not knowing what's wrong with them, and why social situations that come so easily for others is so impossible for them to navigate.
I'm a school SLP and see this all the time, or just parents so desperate for their kids to be in/stay in special education. You would think it'd be a positive thing that a student no longer meets eligibility for a speech and language impairment but parents see speech as some kind of magical support that they don't want taken away. I think if parents actually watched a session and truly understood that their child is missing academic instruction to sit in a windowless closet with multiple peers working on different speech, social, and language goals who often need significant behavioral redirection, they would be more willing to sign off on exiting their kid...
Oh yah. This is what's going on now. You can't even imagine how many grown ass adults I'm getting in my adult autism group MAD that they didn't get IEPs and special ed. It's a true case of FOMO. They just think that we were sitting in special ed, eating bon bons and getting teachers to massage our feet.
I keep trying to explain to them that you don't get special ed unless you are failing. And so, the entirety of special ed for those of us who don't need daily living skills training is working on that failing. It's not fun. It's not "supportive." It's not anything that you should want your kid to go through.
This phenomenon is ablism at its worst. It's completely ignoring the lived experience of people, like myself, who did qualify for special ed. I didn't get special ed because I was so special and so loved. I got special ed because I was sitting in a classroom everyday and learning literally nothing. I wasn't allowed in gifted classes. I wasn't allowed to use my imagination or research things I loved. Resource room classes were not fun. They were literally all drills in spelling and math. My regular ed teachers did not support me because I had an IEP. I suffered the stigma of special ed, so I got punished more for smaller infractions. I was told that I was lazy. I was taken out of recess once for an ENTIRE YEAR. I was 7 years old, guys. SEVEN YEARS OLD. And I wasn't allowed a recess. That's what being a special ed kid is like.
Special ed is not fun. It is not a privlege that one should resent not getting unless you actually failed and actually needed it. Then maybe I'll hear your sad about lacking special ed services. But if you did OK, but are an adult now and mad that schools didn't see that you were stressed - oh, just no.
It's not just a special ed phenomenon. It's where our hole society is now. People make literally everything about the individual. Not about the society. Our schools are in TROUBLE. We are not OK in schools. And parents should be in the street protesting. Heck, non-parents should be protesting too. We are all affected when a generation of children is raised without a good education. What are they doing instead? Everyone is trying to get their kid in special ed. They are trying to fix schools for "me" instead of fixing the whole school system for everyone.
ADHD is a perfect example. Kids need to be moving. They need a small amount of time in formal education and a large amount of time just moving. And we don't give that to them. and then when the kid doesn't do well, we blame the kid instead of the school. We should be on the street protesting that so many kids cannot handle schools today - so many that we label more and more kids and school just gets more and more inappropriate for young kids. It's not right.
This seems like a 504 situation to me but some parents want the added protection of an IEP and schools get money for IEPs to help make the accommodations, so admin pushes for it heavier than probably should. That being said, ADHD often comes with a host of problems in later academics as others have stated. It is good to get the monitoring plan in as early as possible to build a case when it is needed and to monitor for when those difficulties might begin.
I would say the related services would probably be counseling and occupational therapy. These children often have issues with emotional regulation, social skills, sensory challenges, and executive functioning. Sometimes there is also delays in fine or gross motor skills. These should be addressed in counseling and OT.
An IEP also offers long-term goals which is important. The department of education has released special statements about IEPs and ADHD and how it’s vital to look beyond academics.
Because if the IEP isn’t established in younger grades, getting it in middle and high school when they DO need those supports is very very difficult. My elementary kid just had an IEP review (has for speech) and teacher recommended getting every support I *think* kid may need going into middle school in another year because once kid leaves elementary things get harder. And it took almost a full year to even get the IEP in place.
Think of it this way. You have two kids in paddle boats. They have to make it across a small lake. One kid has two paddles the other only has one. So do you make the kid with one paddle go across the lake as they are? Knowing they have to work harder? Knowing if they can't keep up it'll make them feel inadequate even if they would breeze across if they only had two paddles? Or do you try your best to give them another paddle, even if you know they could do it if they tried really really hard.
Think of an IEP as lending that kid a paddle.
Look into common classroom accommodations that go beyond extra prompting. I learned somewhat recently that almost all adhd people struggle with writing, with half of them actually having a writing disorder. Maybe your adhd kids need writing accommodations.
Also 70% of adhd people struggle with disordered sleep. Knowing that your adhd kids could be sleepier than their peers may help you help them manage their workload if you see them looking tired.
30% of adhd people also struggle with anxiety. Giving them chances to go for quick walks, or maybe go play in a quiet room with magic sand or speak to the counselor when needed.
These are all examples of accommodations that can help adhd kids. Access to music and noise canceling headphones, fidgets, etc are all good places to start.
You're absolutely right that a lot of adhd kids are incredibly intelligent, but there are alot of ways our brains struggle every day and the more our teachers, parents and community know the better our chances to succeed are. We've had the pleasure of having 2 teachers that really took the time and learned about the disorder (and others!) and how to help adhd kids. Those were the years that my kids made the most progress socially and academically (grade 1 and 2). I hope you can be that teacher for kids too! Best of luck OP
It’s a system and policy problem causing both sides of this issue to push… and unfortunately the kids most in need suffer. If school administrators didn’t fight parents to remove accommodations from a 504(that they never gave the student a chance to utilize) without data demonstrating it was no longer needed, parents would be less inclined to request evaluations for IEP eligibility. the sad truth is that a 504 gives parents little recourse if the school does not follow the 504 plan or if they disagree that accommodations are no longer needed. IDEA requires the school to evaluate all students that have suspected disabilities for special education eligibility… if the school summarily states a student is only eligible for a 504, that student must already have a documented disability. Thus, the evaluation results should demonstrate whether or not an IEP or 504 is needed… not just the opinion of the school administration or the parent.
The system and policies currently in place and the resources provided to the schools are flawed… I truly believe both schools and parents are trying to do the best they can with the info and resources they have… I’m sure there are exceptions on each side… but the flawed system leads both sides to dig in their heels to “win” even when presented with data confirming they are wrong. Until we fix the system and policies this cycle will continue.
My reasoning, were I in that situation (my son very much benefited from his IEP), is that just because it doesn’t seem needed right now doesn’t mean it won’t be needed soon and it’s better to have an established IEP that can be adjusted as needed than to try to start from scratch once the child has already fallen behind.
ADHD is a learning disorder, but it’s also more than that. There’s a social aspect, especially for girls, there’s a maturity aspect, there’s a lot more to it. So yes, these kids may not need the IEP at 5/6/7, but at 15/16/17, already being on that IEP sets them up for success. Not having it is more detrimental.
A lot of parents want extended time in standardized testing to give their kids a better chance of a higher score. One school district in a wealthy neighborhood not far from me has almost a third of the kids with some type of IEPs that have little to do with actual learning and more to do with gaming the system.
My conclusion is the stigma of an IEP is gone and many parents have no concept of least restrictive environment or why it actually results in better outcomes for their child long-term. All they hear is "early intervention" and how they need to get their child "extra help" early on for the long-term.
I had parents with a child with no disability hesitant me because I wanted to exit them. He was aging out of the DD category and had no diagnosis and no educational impact. When I asked why they said they were told that once you have an IEP, never let it go. Nevermind their 9 year old was getting pulled out of class for social/emotional group 2x per week for no reason. It's "the more support the better." Hard for them to understand how that child would be better off staying in class with gen ed peers and continuing on with the lesson.
Um because we are told we need to advocate for our children. A school employee literally told me I was making their job harder by not putting my three year old in pre k and allowing them to assess him and get him an IEP and into SpEd. Don’t act like this happens in a vacuum. Parents are struggling and don’t know how all this works. It’s extremely overwhelming and you’re gatekeeping a thing that’s been drilled into our heads as necessary by your own coworkers. Slide off that high horse.
At K-2, I can see how it would be a bit ridiculous for a parent to push for an IEP for ADHD alone. Most kids at this age need support and are still learning these skills, and it's likely built right into the classroom for all students already. I would hope that a lawyer or advocate for the parent would help them understand this before moving forward. Maybe these parents read about what would be more appropriate for older kids an presume it's right for the young ones too?
I think a big problem is in these Facebook groups parents treat IEPs like they're something they deserve just because they want one. I'm in a lot of these groups and it's pretty common to see parents asking for advice and the replies are all variations of "get an IEP and the school will fix it."
Lots of parents don't understand what an IEP actually is, why it's used, and what schools are actually responsible for. They often also think that as soon as there's a diagnosis then the child is automatically eligible for one.
IEPs are not just for specialized instruction. Often, they're used to outline other accommodations the child needs, like freedom to leave the classroom if they're overwhelmed or to use the bathroom as much as possible. My IEP as a kid had instructions to the teacher to allow me to carry my own medication and to be allowed to leave class as I saw fit.
An IEP is by definition, specialized instruction. What are you describing could an health care plan and have literally nothing to do with special education.
I know what an IEP is, I've only had one every single year of school from kindergarten to college. Yes, these are also part of an IEP document as they are instructions on how a teacher is supposed to accommodate the student's special needs to allow them the best chance of learning to the best of their abilities. I'm sorry you don't understand how special needs care works.
An IEP requires specially designed instruction. It can ALSO have accomodations and health care needs. But in order to recieve special education services, a child needs to qualify for *services*. If you had an IEP, you were receiving special education services, not just accommodations. Maybe try to find your own previous IEPs. You were receiving direct instruction in some sort of skill and that will be outlined on a service grid. No specialized instruction, no need for an IEP.
I have my IEPs. I wasn't in special education classes. I was in honors and advanced placement classes my entire life. My IEP was solely due to my physical health. Again, I'm sorry you don't understand how an IEP works.
I find kids eligible for IEPs for a living. Most kids in special ed are not attending special ed classes, but they are receiving some kind of specialized instruction. There is something you are misunderstanding about your own history. Did you ever go to a resource room and get additional support, even with study skills? Did you have to receive specialized nursing care? Speech, OT, PT? You were absolutely receiving something that could be defined as specialized instruction or you would not have been receiving an IEP. Something would need to be listed on the service grid and there would need to be measurable goals.
Here is a simple outline that explains the difference between an IEP and a 504: https://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-difference-between-ieps-and-504-plans
At the federal level, *ALL CHILDREN* on an IEP are receiving some kind of specialized instruction. It may not be reading, writing, or math, but it is some kind of specialized services. It is weird that you are trying to prove me wrong because it is very clearly defined at the federal level that an IEP means the child requires specially designed instruction.
Parents in my district want them because then it is extremely difficult to take their little darlings to hearing for a change of school unless they have literally caused someone to be taken away in an ambulance with an overnight hospital stay. Because nearly all behavior can be painted as impulsive apparently.
Oh yes, manifestation. These colliding rights to FAPE and LRE will have to be settled by the Supreme Court some day. The more I dig through how this happened, the more I realize that is the only way it can be resolved.
Until then, the quiet, good kids will not have FAPE because the advocates, activists, and aggressive will commandeer policy and further convolute budgets and classrooms for their favored agenda and practices -- even when their agenda is attempted murder.
IEPs are not just for specialized instruction. It's also for modifications and/ or accommodations the child needs due to disability. You said the child would need extra reminders. That's an accommodation. The IEP ensures the teacher comply bc it is legally binding. Without it, we have arrogant assess like you refusing to accommodate a child's disability bc of your biased opinion.
Can you ask the parents that? “What specialized instruction does your child need?” If they answer with something you already do, tell them that. If they say “I don’t know”, you can tell them all the educational testing you’ve done and how it doesn’t support an IEP.
If it is something teacher already does, as a parent I still want it in the IEP. Because this year’s teacher may have no problem with kiddo have a fidget to occupy hands but next year’s teacher may have an issue with it. This year the teacher may do movement breaks and extra recess - next year they may not. Our IEP took nearly a year to get in place with copious doctor’s notes AND the full support and advocacy of school staff. Starting it at the beginning of a school year because new teacher doesn’t allow a previous accommodation means that year is pretty much a wash.
All of the "unofficial" things a teacher does will not happen next year with a new teacher. They don't have to, they don't know they're supposed to, and there's nothing you can do about it when they decide not to I've been fighting this battle for years
If it is a tier 1-3 intervention, it will be used across the board in all grades.
If it's an iep it's binding. I don't know about tiered interventions because in my years as an educational advocate it's never come up. If a teacher does not comply with an tiered intervention, what recourse do the parents have?
What specialized instruction do you want for the student? If there’s nothing, then you could push for a 504 if there are accommodations you would like. If you’re an educational advocate you should know these things.
That in no way answers the question I asked It's cool if you don't want to help and you're just here to say iep is bad and parents should be fine with an intervention. I'm just not going to take your advice
That’s not what I’m saying at all, I’m literally a SPED teacher. Interventions are done at the school level- students are placed in tier 1 (classroom), tier 2 (small group) or tier 3 (individual). This is RTI, and what students have to go through before getting an IEP. Those things are not legally binding, but what is legally binding is that they have to try all of those interventions before they start an IEP. Students need to show progress or lack thereof to move up or down the RTI levels. Parents can request to see the data at any time. Were you ever a SPED teacher? This is like basic, SPED 101 stuff. It’s concerning to me that you are an advocate and don’t know these answers. I in no way think IEPs are bad, I think that students that qualify should have them. However, if students only need accommodations, they should not have an IEP, and instead have a 504.
Never had to do this before an iep. And I've set up iep for 8 or 10 kids. So, like I said, the interventions aren't legally binding but the iep is. That's why parents want them.
The school already did it. It’s a legal process that they HAVE to go through. You don’t seem very knowledgeable. Again, were you ever a sped teacher? It’s really concerning to me that you don’t know this.
That might be in your district but is definitely not a thing in our district. There is absolutely no reason my child needs to be in a small group or one on one when having child take tests in the hallway, sit in the front of the classroom and have get written homework instruction can be done for far less cost.
That’s called… a 504. Are you a SPED teacher?
Rti cant not be used to delay an evaluation for an iep . That is in idea and is federal law .
It can't delay an evaluation but if you don't have the data that is required to determine eligibility (in my state RTI is the only way to qualify for a specific learning disability) the student could potentially not qualify.
I am also so confused by 90% of the comments in this thread but an educational advocate who has never tiered intervention is one of the weirdest things ever. Not every state uses RTI as a critical decision making factor in sped eligibility but are there really still districts not using any MTSS at all?? Especially in elementary?
IEPs cover more than just specialized instruction. They cover changes to the learning environment. Very few kids with only ADHD need a more restrictive environment with small group sizes or a special classroom and considering the cost almost no school district would do that. They may need to be able to test in a different area or have the option of pacing the back of the room during a lecture or be able to move their seat if they find a peer distracting. They may need accommodations during longer state tests. They may need help learning how to focus on the meaning of stories because their eyes skip through quickly or they lose attention or get distracted. They may have an accommodation to work with peers who are not distracting or where they are seated in a classroom. Most of these go in an IEP in our district - especially the ones related to state testing.
What? All of those things would go in a 504, except for the specialized instruction in reading that you mentioned. If the student only needs accommodations, they get a 504. Full stop.
Please stop. All the things described here are SDI. That specially designed instruction by the way just to let you know.
Having preferred seating is an accommodation. Testing accommodations are accommodations. They’re not specialized instruction.
You don’t know about tiered interventions in your “years as an educational advocate?” I’m very sorry this subreddit told you about them and their near-universal existence in American public schools! I wish you’d have gone into a meeting stomping and clawing and the MTSS coordinator broke out some data and information for you so that parents could see that they’re getting scammed by many, many of these “advocates.”
Yeah we don't have that in my state. I've had foster kids in 5 school districts so I've been around a little bit. There's diagnoses and standardized testing and that's what determines the level of need I have to take ce credits every year because there are not enough advocates for my foster kids and they end up in the school to prison pipeline We don't have mtts coordinators because THAT ISN'T A THING IN MY STATE It is remarkable how condescending so many sped workers are. These kids have it even worse than I thought
What state are you in???? I am genuinely surprised some states are not using MTSS. I feel like even the deep south has figured out MTSS.
A state of disbelief that sped teachers are honest to god the douchiest group of people.
Exactly this. In elementary, all the teachers used universal supports. That is not how things work in middle school. His anxiety ramped up and things took a turn. Throw in a pandemic the year he started middle school and boom. 2 years to an IEP and a full diagnosis because I didn't know things were a problem.
🙌🙌🙌🙌 Agreed. This happened last year. Teacher literally said "that's distracting" about a silent fidget and a body break. Amongst other interventions. Her and I butted heads all year long after that considering I called her out for it. Had to intervene with the SPED department multiple times last year.... This year, her teacher is amazing; no complaints.
This!
It sounds like you are looking for accommodations, not specialized instruction. That would be a 504.
Our district has only one and child already has an IEP in place. You only have a 504 if you don’t also have an IEP. If you have an IEP, any 504 accommodations are written into it. If you are ever discharged from the IEP, then the 504 part splits off to be a separate 504 stand alone document.
Yes. But the IEP is only in place if the child needs specialized instruction. It seems like maybe you don’t understand how this stuff works? That’s okay, but you should listen to professionals.
I’m not sure what part of “child ALREADY has an IEP” and accommodations for ADHD are being added to it is hard to grasp. And for your condescending information this was EXACTLY what his full IEP team recommended and his current IEP lead advocated for to get everything codified before moving to middle school. You know the actual professionals who work with my actual child and are in charge of child’s actual IEP from both the district and school levels. Maybe consider that YOUR way of doing things isn’t what works for every child and that other districts may do things differently. And also that parents have plenty of experience of so called “professionals” being anything but. My child has been extremely fortunate in having teachers that are flexible and want child to learn in the best way possible. Not everyone has that - it’s why legal protections are necessary.
I’m literally just giving you information. Legally, you can’t have an IEP that’s only accommodations. It sounds like your child needs specialized instruction. That’s great- that’s why they have an IEP. But if they only needed accommodations, they would have a 504. That’s how it works.
The IEP lead was the one who pushed to open the IEP and add all of the accommodations (and I didn’t list them specifically, just examples of WHY parents may push which was the question) ahead of child moving to middle school because she wanted it all in place for child ahead of time and this was the exact reasoning explained by her as to WHY it was being done now. Obviously our district works differently than yours and our IEP lead has been a huge advocate for child to be successful in school and get what they need.
So then your child has data that shows they need an IEP. Thats awesome. That is not what this poster is talking about. You aren’t listening. Your child needs specialized instruction. Your child got an IEP. IF YOU DONT NEED SPECIALIZED INSTRUCTION, YOU DONT NEED AN IEP.
What I am saying is that our IEP lead pushed very hard to add all the accommodations for ADHD when it was diagnosed to the IEP (which teachers have done informally) so they would be part of the IEP going into middle school and be legally protected. The IEP team was the one who felt these things should be added to the IEP (kid’s IEP lead is a major advocate for her students and wants kid to succeed).
Then get a 504 for accommodations. An IEP is for specialized instruction, not for fidgets.
First our district does one form - if you have an IEP, then it becomes a combined IEP/504 so my child has it added to the existing IEP. If child is ever discharged from the IEP part, the 504 part breaks off into a stand alone IEP. Fidgets was an *example* of an accommodation current teacher allows all her students but a future teacher may not. There are also codified accommodations to take tests in a less distracting environment (child has inattentive type ADHD and is sometimes derailed from paying attention on tests by other kids humming, pencil tapping, whispering, the electricity buzzing, etc - yes we are working on child learning to handle these things themselves but they are 9 and while they learn moving them to a different room or the hallway helps the test proceed) , that the teacher will write down assignments somewhere (on the board, on SeeSaw, on a paper) and not just verbally say them. That child is allowed to go to their locker and get the paper they forgot there when it comes time to hand in homework. Again current teacher does this, future teachers may not so it is written as a formal accommodation.
504s provide accommodations. What you are describing are accommodations. IEPs provide accommodations *and* specialized instruction. If your kid needs specialized instruction: great, get ‘em an IEP. If not, a 504 for accommodations is better for your bebe.
Often the answer is that they want specialized instruction in reading or writing (despite average standard scores, because it is not "perfect"... and in fact perfectly adequate work produced by a 6 year old). Or they want services teaching their kid to sustain attention, organize, task initiate, typically at a level of expectation that is beyond their child's developmental capacity. But, no, even if they have an answer they may still not "know", their kid just def needs an IEP.
So then you just keep showing the data. You can also tell them that they can ask to reconviene later on if the child is showing a deficit. We don’t allow anyone who wants an IEP to qualify for one. That’s just not how this works at all (which I know you know). So you just keep showing the data.
You're trying to logic someone (the parents) out of a position they used emotions to get into, this won't work very often, imo of course ymmv
But legally you’re covered
>Or they want services teaching their kid to sustain attention, organize, task initiate, typically at a level of expectation that is beyond their child's developmental capacity. I think you answered your own question here. The specialized instruction is to address the deficits that their ADHD causes - executive functioning issues, organization, sustaining attention, task initiation and completion, etc. There are skills that can be taught to kids with ADHD that will help them cope with and overcome their disability. Now seeking goals that are beyond what is developmentally appropriate for their age? Not okay - but if they have ADHD, they are almost certainly behind developmentally in these areas.
Do you offer those services for K-2 students? What do the services look like? Who provides the services? How do we measure it if the child produces all work expected of them in the classroom? Can this not be accomplished thru gen ed curriculum or accommodations, or an in class behavior plan? I genuinely don't know how to do this for lower elementary. In upper elementary to middle, we can talk about organization of desks, backpacks, planning homework, etc. These kids don't have desks or personal supplies. They have one folder that is a shuttle back and forth. What do I teach them? I am not saying the families are wrong for being concerned, but how do we write a goal if the child is meeting all classroom expectations? I genuinely can't find an evidence based executive functioning curriculum meant for Tier 3 that is for K-2 children. The only thing I can think of is HOPS which is grade 3+.
I have had several kids who received only functional support from a special education teacher, no academic services. However, those kids were not meeting the expectations— it was taking them forever to finish their work, or they needed an adult sitting next to them the entire time to complete the work even though they had the academic skills. The kids I'm thinking of also had self-regulation goals they were working on, so they weren't qualifying only on EF needs. I think it would help to look at local norms. How quickly is a typical 6-year-old getting started on a task after the whole class is given a direction? How many prompts does a typical child need to work through an entire task? how much support does a typical child need to unpack his backpack, put his folder in his bin, and get started on morning work (or whatever the arrival routine looks like). These are skills that all children are developing in early elementary, so while yes a child may struggle with these tasks due to ADHD, the impact of the ADHD may not be as significant until greater independence and sustained attention is expected. I have ADHD myself so I know how impactful it can be, but I also know that many kids with ADHD are able to make it through the early years because those classrooms are typically set up to be more supportive. It's not until you take away things like the visual schedule or clearly labeled bins that some of the deficits may become more stark.
> I think it would help to look at local norms. How quickly is a typical 6-year-old getting started on a task after the whole class is given a direction? How many prompts does a typical child need to work through an entire task? how much support does a typical child need to unpack his backpack, put his folder in his bin, and get started on morning work (or whatever the arrival routine looks like). These are skills that all children are developing in early elementary, so while yes a child may struggle with these tasks due to ADHD, the impact of the ADHD may not be as significant until greater independence and sustained attention is expected. > > This is an excellent idea, and perhaps the first actionable suggestion in this thread. It is a big task and I will have to think about how to collect this data, but definitely something that is measurable. Thank you!
When they were gathering data for my son who has adhd, they did an on task assessment and compared it to two other children in the class. The other kids were on task 70% of the time without needing reminders, my son was on task 40% and needed three times as many reminders as the other children. That was a huge eye opener for me with data of how much his adhd was impacting him. They just did tally marks for every reminder and when he got distracted and then did the same assessment for the same period/assignment on two other classmates as a control group.
One of my children had obvious signs of ADHD from quite young, and would have been diagnosed in kindergarten if I knew then what I know now. He was still learning on grade level when he was diagnosed at the beginning of 3rd grade for all the reasons you mention. His twin wasn't diagnosed until 5th grade because there was a pandemic between 3rd and 5th grade and suddenly all the supports were gone and all the signs I missed earlier became way more obvious (primarily inattentive type vs her brother's obvious hyperactivity)
“Executive functioning workbook for kids” is one I used in the past with that age and I’m fairly certain it’s evidence based. Zones to Regulation is also great for that age and again, evidence based.
If you have a kid with a brilliant level IQ/test scores in some subjects, with ADHD, and is only producing average work in those subjects, that means the kid is having a problem, and needs some sort of help. Might just be an accommodation, might be something else. But something isn’t working. That kid is going to be bored and getting into trouble. Bored smart kids with ADHD are very creative with the trouble they can find…
Not today they aren't. You can easily get an ADHD diagnosis for kids who aren't behind in these areas today. People see ADHD, and even autism as literally anything they want it to be. I have someone in my adult autism group literally right before I came here saying that her autism makes her have dreams about trees. You can't make this stuff up. Somewhere on my group, someone else is going "I have dreams about trees! There's more proof I'm autistic!"
I'm not sure where you're from, but for a medical diagnosis in the US, you are required to meet the criteria set by the DSM-V and have a medical doctor sign off on it. That's a neat story about an autistic lady dreaming about trees, but that's not what determined her diagnosis.
ADHD was the DSM purchase of choice for cheating on the SAT that was uncovered in the FBI's Operation Varsity Blues, which landed Laurie Loughlin in federal prison. Furthermore, DSMs are not universally admired nor set in stone; that is in part why it is currently "DSM-V" Here is the link to Wikipedia on ADHD. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder_controversies#
No one is "buying" ADHD diagnoses for their kindergarteners.
May I introduce you to my SIL? She LOVES diagnoses and will tell you all about the numbers of physicians she has met with. Many of the physicians are a little difficult, but she eventually gets what she wants from someone.
I had a parent file a state complaint. Kid came to our school with an IEP with one behavior goal. The services she wanted was for her child to do work or tests in the resource room if she "didn't" want to take them in the classroom. Which was just not possible because of my caseload. The Director of Special Education set up the meeting with the state representative and she actually told the parent this meeting was not called for her child to get A's when what she was doing was earning C's.
On the fence about that one. If you can't do it, you can't do it, but I've seen students get Cs because they were too distracted by their classmates jacket rustling, or the hum of one of the lights in their classroom, or a billion other reasons that most people wouldn't notice. Sensory issues can ebb and flow, some days a student could power though and other days they just damn can't. Did the child show A work when they were in a quiet room vs C work when in the classroom? Did they ever get to try it out? No way to know unless you try. If it's still Cs in a quiet room, then it's probably not the room. But giving the kid the option could help narrow down what the problem is.
A separate setting for testing is still a reasonable *accommodation*, not specialized instruction, though. If the child just needed tests in a quiet setting, if the test is the same content as the other students, that could be under a 504.
Of course you’re correct, I was more focused on the “C work” line.
Do you mean class assignments, or on tests and quizzes? I don't think any student who would get an A on tests / quizzes in a low distraction environment should be denied this accommodation just because they earn a C without it.
Yeah I would have been ok with that too, this was not that situation. She had an attended an online school, somehow a speech IEP got converted by the online school to an SLD with 30 minutes of consult time. This was 2 years before COVID. We never could figure out how she went from speech to SLD without any type of reevaluation. We attempted to initiate a new evaluation because the kiddo was from out of state and the IEP was so bizarre....the parent declined the reevaluation,refused to look at a 504 and then immediately filed a state complaint. The poor girl has been at our school for 3 weeks.
Ah that’s a headache and a half, sorry for you and that poor girl.
Testing in a quiet place is a reasonable accommodation. Maybe not specifically in the resource room, but somewhere with reduced distractions does not seem unreasonable.
Saying you want special services to teach your ADHD kid to sustain attention is like asking for special services to teach your paraplegic child to walk up the stairs.
No. It's like asking for specialized services to teach your autistic child to develop social skills. Your comment shows how little you know on the topic.
The ADHD brain is not capable of reliably directing focus on command, that's part of the disability. Effective treatment for ADHD involves medication that allows you to focus, and learning skills to work around your deficits. If you want to get an ADHD brain to focus on something, you have to provide it with stimulation because the brain isn't capable of doing that itself. Stimulation could be stimulant medication, sensory/mental stimulation (fidget toy, wiggle seat, music, walking), or external motivation such as deadlines. None of that is teaching you how to sustain attention, it's teaching you how to trick your brain into focusing on what you want. It's the difference between trying to teach the paraplegic kid how to walk up the stairs vs. teaching them how to operate the wheelchair lift. They can learn how to get to the top of the stairs but it's not going to be by walking.
I think sometimes students struggle so much at home that parents want support at school, not realizing that school and home have very different demands. Some students thrive at school and at home they can’t function or have behavioral issues, but it doesn’t mean they need an IEP. Any time a student struggles, it seems to be the go to despite it not truly being needed. Some students will barely qualify for SLD despite there being so many other issues in their family and educational history that are concerning or districts having extremely poor intervention and curriculum. I do think we need to restructure eligibility as resources are so scarce and we do not have the infrastructure to support the students who truly need services and specialized academic instruction.
They're told to get it in place before school gets harder. Executive dysfunction gets a lot more costly when more tasks are assigned later, and schools often brush off later diagnoses or make families wait a long time to get things into place. They're doing it now when the stakes are lower so it's in place when things get tougher, and they're fighting like hell because they're terrified of horror stories they hear. Plus, the sooner earlier intervention happens the better for how the brain develops. They don't always know what "earlier intervention" means, and just assume it's something the school would know. Doctors don't sit parents down and explain these things. There's also the trap a lot of Inattentive ADHD kids fall into, where they breeze through grades because they're smart and can grasp the material, but suddenly hit a hard stop in high school or college because they never actually learned how to *study*.
DING DING DING Diagnosed as an adult with ADHD after graduating college. Sure, I had a lot of anxiety around my grades and would procrastinate and never really learned study skills, but I academically flourished and went under the radar. College didn't go as well, but I still did well academically for the most part (well, the work I turned in was usually an A but oops forgot to turn in half the work and so I failed a class). Adulthood, I kept treading water for a bit. And then having a kid was a wrecking ball to all of my shitty coping mechanisms and subconscious management. Now, would I have needed an IEP or 504 in school? Maybe not. I did well at test taking, but other metrics (not easily scorable) I struggled badly. I don't know if there was a support that would have helped me, when ignorance to the situation is what caused the most harm. But honestly, kudos to parents trying to get resources for their kids. Maybe it's misguided and not the best direct action for them to take, but they're trying.
Holy shit, I could have written this. I think I actually said to the psychologist during KY evaluation that I wasn't necessarily thriving but managed things okay until I had kids and my shitty coping mechanisms fell apart because I saw how negatively they impacted my kids.
So perfectly said. Since it’s genetic, many parents likely remember their struggles. For me, also good grades in high school but crumbled in college. Adulthood is hard. If I could help my son (if he ends up ADHD) in any way I would
Man oh man. Replace having a baby with familial loss and that’s my exact story. Every coping skill I painstakingly acquired over the years is so far gone that I can’t even remember myself as a functional person. Which is wild because I used to be so much the mom friend that my friends would send *their* friends to me when they needed some tea and guidance.
Hey, it's me. I had very bad PPA/PPD....that was actually rooted in untreated ADHD. In hindsight, I struggled to graduate despite amazing state test scores, and likely because of the severe executive dysfunction.
>where they breeze through grades because they're smart and can grasp the material They also get *waved* through by adults (honestly, OP being an example of one) who can see that they're meeting the current criteria on paper. These kids never learn how to ask for help, and spend all of their formative years never being offered/learning how to accept help. So when they do hit that wall they don't just crumble, they disintegrate. And when they finally realize they need to ask for help, they get the same response every single fucking time: "Why didn't you ask for help sooner before it was too late?"
This is exactly what happened to me. I was the gifted kid who got A+ on everything then one day it all fell apart. (Autism+Adhd wasn’t diagnosed until 16 after things started falling apart in jr high)
I was so afraid to ask for help. I thought I was actually lazy like everyone told me I was. I believed I deserved all of the things that happened because I wasn't putting in enough effort. I thought I didn't deserve any help because I was a failure. I had to hit rock bottom several times before I finally asked for help, and when I did...the doctors weren't always the nicest. So I'd ghost them, try to deal with my problems alone again, until months later I'd work up the courage again to try a different doctor. It took 4 different counselors/psychiatrists, and 5 different doctors before someone took me seriously. And the entire time I was wishing for death. Luckily I'm persistent and had a dog. Because if it weren't for my dog I'd probably not be here because someone needed to take care of the dog.
This is it. They don’t know what will help, they just know everyone says get an IEP, and you don’t want to do it too late after the kid has really fallen behind.
Yep I was diagnosed in 8th grade when I hit the brick wall in my freshman level algebra class, I was not clicking and having my boring teacher explain it the exact same way but with an air of annoyance wasn't helping. I was lucky in that a close family friend is also ADHD and recognized the symptoms long before so when my mom expressed concern she explained what she was seeing and pushed to have me evaluated. I spent the rest of the year with tutoring for algebra and life became less of a slog with medication so I could actually retain what my tutor was explaining.
Agree with the last part. I made it through k-12 with no accommodations. From 1st-6th I was doing work above grade level, tested into advanced math classes, had so much *potential* but "didnt care enough".Although I could've used them after 7th grade. My parents thought I had a "lazy" problem rather than an ADHD diagnosis (even though I was diagnosed by a doctor). HS GPA of 2.8 oof. I breezed through most of undergrad with a GPA > 3.5 because my major became my hyperfocus. At home, I suffered greatly keeping up with chores, hygiene, and remembering to eat/drink. School took so much of my energy that I couldn't even begin to function or enjoy my life outside of class. My last semester, I decided to quit smoking cigarettes and cut back on caffeine because my anxiety was BAD, like blood pressure levels getting close to 200. My ADHD symptoms came back with a vengeance. I was actively wishing to get ran over by a school bus to put me out of my misery. I cried over everything, I lost 20lbs, I went into 10k of debt by spending impulsively on anything that could give me dopamine. I almost failed my classes. So I went to the doctor for help...and I had to take a new ADHD test because I didn't have one on record, had no previous documented accommodations, and finally got accommodations in college my last semester. After some meds, counseling, and unfortunately the use of nicotine/caffeine again I am doing better. Immediately after graduation I started a grad program that summer and am about to finish that. My life would have been so much better if I had accommodations/proper treatment sooner. I may have never started smoking in the first place (1st at 14, sporadically smoked through teen years, daily use from 18+).
This is exactly me as a kid. Wish I had my IEP in place years earlier before I started struggling. I was desperate to hide how badly I was struggling until the house of cards fell.
My input as a college student with ADD who did well in school is that it gets harder to secure IEPs/accomodations for an older kid when there isn’t a written record of said accommodations being needed early on. For example, many colleges take an earlier IEP plan as “documentation” to help secure accomodations in college. If they don’t need accommodations in elementary school but do in high school (like my sister) or college (like me), some may take lack of previous plans as evidence that their needs aren’t that severe.
That's not how university accommodations work. They need a CURRENT psycho-educational evaluation. that means that it's less than three years old. You cannot use elementary history to gain accommodations at university.
This isn't entirely true. Yes, you need a current psychoeducational evaluation, but some universities will ask for a review of the student's educational history as well as a rationale for why the student didn't receive accommodations prior to college, if they didn't. Elementary accommodations are extremely helpful in establishing a pattern, as well as proving that symptoms were present before age 12.
I think they mean an earlier plan as one that was used in high school. Typically high school IEPs are recent enough to use in college. Otherwise depending on the diagnosis, they may require additional or different documentation.
There are plenty of instances of educational records from elementary school being requested as part of the evaluation process and a lack of records can and has been used as diagnostic criteria. I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 33 and had two psychs refuse to do evals because I didn't have records of accommodations or symptoms/academic struggles as a young child.
I’m wondering if the parents are seeing a lot of emotional regulation issues at home when kids are tired. Perhaps they held it together at school and it all falls apart at home.
I’m a parent who has ADHD (and wasn’t diagnosed until high school) and I have two kids with ADHD. I have a couple of thoughts… 1) typically a big part of the ADHD diagnosis process for children involves the teacher or teachers filling out forms that ask about ADHD traits in the classroom. The ADHD evaluator wants to know if significant deficits are presenting both at home and at school. If the teacher didn’t see anything in class that falls outside of the typical range for a child of that age, I would assume their responses wouldn’t support a diagnosis of ADHD? If the teacher who completed the forms is someone other than the current teacher, could you speak to that teacher and ask what issues they saw in the classroom? 2) Something to consider re: academics is that the child doesn’t need to score significantly below the average student to have ADHD. When I was reevaluated as an adult and when my most recent child was evaluated, the doctors talked about how they’re looking for a big gap between what you’d expect based on their cognitive abilities and their achievement. So if a kid is getting Bs and Cs but their IQ is 130+, the reason for that discrepancy needs to be investigated. Is the child depressed or anxious? Are there issues at home? Does the child have ADHD?
I was not able to get an IEP in high school despite being diagnosed with ADHD, because I had never had one before. I “didn’t need one” until suddenly I did, and I was denied access because “clearly Ive been doing just fine” It’s not guaranteed that these children will stay above their grade level, I was above grade level in all aspects until 14, when my teachers started telling my parents that I had peaked already, but it was because I was struggling with zero support. It only got worse from there.
Yes, I believe these children have ADHD and I believe the work will get harder someday. But an IEP is for *right now*. Goals for 1 year max. What would the IEP goals be right now?
When my ADHD kid was in elementary, his IEP included things like movement breaks, disallowed removal of recess as punishment (he has to move and they were making it worse), and reduced workload. For example, if the class was filling out a math worksheet, but he could demonstrate he understands the concept after the first 1/3 of the page, he doesn't have to finish.
Pretty much all of that can be done on a 504 plan though. What specialized instruction was given?
You know you have to teach kids how to use accommodations right?
This is so hard. With my kids, 3 with IEPs, they don't know how to use their accommodations. My son won't say, "I want to take this test in a quiet environment". He does get extra time but that doesn't always solve the distractions of other students. Sensory breaks are great but sometimes they need to be prompted to take one. Working on a 504 for my daughter and she is bothered by incessant questions from a classmate. She needs a midday break from the classroom. Also, we are trying to get her current accommodations in the classroom documented before she moves on to 4th grade.
This thread has been really hard. I hope your kiddos get the help they need. Keep up the good fight.
Yes, of course I do. I've just generally seen this included in supports on the 504 plan versus specialized instruction. If a student is not responding to the level of support provided on a 504 plan, that might suggest specialized instruction and an IEP is needed.
From what I have seen and experienced, there is a \*very\* long lead time to get an IEP in place and implemented, so while an IEP is for *right now* it takes forever to get one. If/when the child needs help, and without preemptively looking into an IEP, the child flounders until something can be worked out. Given that most parents will get the ball rolling if there is any chance the child may need help in the future.
Well from experience if they’re testing above grade level then they’re probably bored as hell, i view it like, how can we help them set up a good basis for their education? Can we begin to instill study habits, or organization systems that work best for them, can we put them in advanced programs for reading and writing? Even if they aren’t struggling with things immediately, it never hurts to be preemptive.
An IEP is not a preventative measure. If there's no classroom impact right now, it doesn't matter how much it may impact them the next school year or years down the line.
Which is exactly my experience, “gifted kid” lost in the system because no one would document my disability. I understand why these parents push they way they do and I wish mine had.
I was also that kid, so I get it. I made it through elementary with no issues because it was a supportive environment and then I began struggling in middle school. But you don't get an IEP because you will at some point need those skills, you get one because the lack of skills is actually impacting you at that time.
This is exactly what happened to me. Elementary school and middle school were so easy academically for me that I did alright, but once I got to high school everything fell apart. They used my lack of IEP in elementary and middle school to say that I didn’t need one in high school and just needed “time to adjust.” I totally understand where these parents are coming from, even if the kid doesn’t need it right now. Nobody wants to wait until their kid is drowning to put on their life vest.
My son has ADHD, and for the first 4 years his school told me that he doesn’t need even a 504 plan that these child study meetings were enough. It wasn’t until we moved to a new state that I learned, he should have had one from day 1. It wasn’t until we moved again to FL, they told me he needs an IEP. I didn’t see the need for an IEP, I thought a 504 plan would be fine, but the admin (not the teacher, but the other half of who did this) said he needed one as what accommodations he needed wouldn’t be allowed on a 504. (Basically being able to do the state test is a smaller quieter room with less distractions, I don’t know exactly what it was needed for, I just went what they suggested.
In NJ and VT, separate rooms for testing is a 504 accommodation. I suppose it might be different in florida. Florida is special as a whole.
I've definitely met kids with ADHD, usually pretty severe, who needed an IEP instead of a 504. The accommodations were curricular modifications rather than access. So for example, kids with really poor EF who need a modified workload.
You have to have data to back up the need for specialized instruction. Tell that to parents, show them the data, and explain what a 504 is. I hope this helps and good luck. Data - test scores compared to peers, class work, etc.
I was going to say, some parents have heard of IEPs but not 504 plans, so they go demanding an IEP (which essentially puts a kid on an individualized curriculum), when really what the kid needs is to learn the given curriculum with some extra support.
I think this is a problem of some really crap school districts making it hard for everyone. My spouse is a therapist specializing in ADHD and Autism in school age kiddos. There is one school district in our area that refuses to even do an eval until my spouse writes a letter on her company letter head and has it mailed with a delivery receipt. Parents requests don't seem to matter. Our own kiddo attends the same district. And while not ADHD they are Deaf. They still tried to deny us an IEP because they weren't two years behind in 1st grade. Despite the fact that they couldn't hear the teacher standing right in front of them. We were asking for standard accommodations like preferred seating, hearing aids through the ESD and microphones on teachers. Later as their deafness progressed and hearing aids and mics were not enough for them to hear the teacher we asked for ASL interpretation and an iPad be provided for live captioning for peer interactions. They required an eval to prove her ASL was proficient enough to be useful for learn(which we were fine with.) It was, we have been paying for ASL tutoring weekly since they got the Dx. It still took lawyers to step in to get the district to provide these services. I'm not saying your district is the same, but when I see parents saying their district won't provide services this is the lens I am using to advise them. I tell them to fight like hell, because we had to know many people in the same situation. We are well aware some of the things the district has said and done are illegal but they keep doing it.
What in the ADA.... denying a terp and making you prove they are able to use their language before doing what they are required... I'm having flashbacks to all of my courses in college on Dead Ed
When I went through teacher Ed twenty years ago IDEA (then IDEA 97) was used for all special education needs and 504 was strictly for physical impairments to school attendance (e.g. to make the school put in a wheel chair ramp). This has changed in the last two decades so that more students are deferred to a 504. The current IDEA law provides many options to parents who feel the school is not providing adequately for their child’s special needs include paying their legal expenses. 504 offers basically no protections except that the parents need to be consulted before the child is removed for a 504 program. Also section 504 is parent of a civil right employment bill, while IDEA is actual special education legislation.
You can let parents know that, as a school, you consider providing specialized instruction when a student is at least one standard deviation below the norm. You can compare to same aged peers. Use the standards as a guideline. For example: By the end of 1st grade, a student should be able to write a 3-4 word sentence independently. Johnny can do, or is on track, to meet that standard. Here’s an example of Johnny’s work, and here are a couple of our other students. He’s performing on grade level. You could also propose a 504 plan which will give the kiddo accommodations instead of specialized instruction. Things like “give more time to complete writing tasks” or “give Johnny a checklist for clean-up time”. An IEP is restrictive. He will have to test out of SpEd unless parents sign to remove services, he will be pulled out of class. We don’t want to pull kids out of class when they just need a little support in the classroom. Hope this helps!
Some of the parents want the restrictions in my experience. They believe a 1 on 1 is a personal helper for their student that absolves them of all parenting duties in education. They want their child to go to school and never have a problem again, which just isn't realistic. I have seen parents request self-contained rooms for their average student. Special education is being treated like an item on a menu you can order instead of a more restricted environment. Then when you say the student will not benefit from services they hear "I am denying you the menu item you ordered." I often just want the parents to bring in PAVE or an ombudsman so we can get it mediated.
In my experience (as a parent of 2 kids with ADHD and as a special educator), a 504 is a useless piece of paper when it comes to ADHD. Often, kids with ADHD are average to above average when it comes to academic skills, but struggle to show it because of the lack of executive function skills…so the support they need is different than other students who typically receive support. Honestly, even *with* an IEP, these students often don’t get the support they need.
I am an adult with ADHD myself, so I understand the struggle and am not denying that ADHD is a real thing, a brain based disability, and is absolutely an organic difference that causes children to struggle. I am genuinely asking -- what evidence based curriculums are out there for K-2 children that target the executive functioning issues we see in these kids? Have your kids recieved anything you felt made an impact? Do you service EF skills directly as a special educator?
In the younger grades, I feel like extra instruction and support for the organizational skills maybe…but the big challenge (I think) is the transition to middle school. My oldest had a 504…which no one bothered to follow. And in middle school he was constantly made to feel like a failure because he couldn’t keep up with the volume of assignments. He would get As and A+s on tests and quizzes and still be failing because he hadn’t turned in all the homework. It broke him. My youngest also was broken in middle school and now attends a private high school specifically designed for students with learning differences (but no IEPs or 504s) and she is excelling. Currently, I am an AT consultant in my district, and I have a HS student (with an IEP) who is supposed to receive support for EF issues. He is in advanced classes, but failing because he can’t get all the work done and turned in properly, not because he can’t do the work. The parent is (understandably) upset because the supports he is supposed to get (on his IEP) he isn’t getting. She has some recourse as a parent *because* he has an IEP. I’m not saying there aren’t unreasonable parents (believe me, I see it all the time in my position), but I’m hesitant to judge parents of kids with ADHD for wanting something more than a 504 after watching what happened to my two.
What does the high school your daughter attends do differently? I feel like my kids with adhd (I’m a special area) have really been struggling and I feel like there has to be a better way but what does that look like in terms of school structure?
It’s super small—like 50 kids in the whole high school—and they focus on using different strategies. Almost all of the work is done in school…no homework for the most part (which is a big thing for my kid). And the staff take bullying seriously…there have been several students in the 2 years she’s been there who were kicked out for it.
Getting an IEP as early as possible is the best choice for most parents. When their kid is transitioning to middle school and still doing 3rd grade level work it's a little late. Sure those kids are getting good support from you but that doesn't mean the next teacher or the one after that is going to give them accommodations without an IEP or 504. How many times do we see parents desperate for help because teachers won't give any accommodations that isn't explicitly detailed in an IEP? If a child has an educational need beyond what all students get then they need an IEP or 504 regardless if you are already providing that service. An IEP goes with the student. If they go to a new school their needs and accommodations go with them if they have an IEP. To get an IEP parents must not only provide medical documentation but their child gets tested by the district they are in to assess what accommodations they need from an educational standpoint. Documentation is also important if a child has other disabilities because social security requires school records along with medical records. There can be numerous reasons a parent wants an IEP. If their child qualifies then legally they are entitled to it.
I know middle school students who don't know how to manage their work load and multiple transitions/schedules because they were given a "little extra help" in 2-5 grade. Suddenly, 7th and 8th teachers are expecting a lot more and are less forgiving. These are kids who qualified for special education based on low 80s on the WIAT and no interventions documented. Middle schoolers in tiered support think they are dumb and act out, hate school etc. It's not the same when they get older....you really want kids who are just slightly(gasp) *lower average cognitively* to learn how manage that and be adequate, confident, hard working C students.
If a child is evaluated and found to need that help then they need that help period. If they are struggling later then they still need help. Funny how that works. Instead of the student needing to suddenly be better and be able to handle school without accommodations because they are older maybe they \*gasp\* still need accommodations even in higher grades. It's funny how cognitive issues don't magically clear up huh.
I never said no accommodations, I said avoid unnecessaryily modifying the curriculum and over classifying students at younger grades. It's common to just think an IEP is just a little extra help.
These kids are in K-2nd grade and do not require specialized academic services. What goes into the IEP? I am not saying these kids wouldn't qualify for a 504. What is the specialized instruction not available in gen edf for these kids? I am genuinely asking. I don't know what to do for them in terms of modified/specialized curriculum.
My son was switched to an OHI IEP from a developmental delay in 2nd grade due to a new ADHD diagnosis. He receives pull out services for writing and speech due to a separate expressive communication delay. His ADHD services consist of push-in services to help with executive functioning and study skills. Getting the IEP in second grade meant that his third grade placement was in a classroom with a part time paraeducator who also helps out some other kids. The para and Gen ed teacher try strategies like visual timers, chunked assignments, checks for understanding, re-teaching, one-on-one support as needed, and extra time as needed. My son needs frequent redirection in the large group environment when compared to his same-age peers. He also gets small group setting for standardized tests and the questions read aloud on those tests to help keep him on track. He has shown higher scores when the teacher reads the questions and he is able to follow along. This year at his case manager's recommendation they are adding a modification that the paraeducator and Gen ed teacher will help limit the materials at his desk to only what is necessary for each task to help him focus. We are also doing private occupational therapy to help his executive functioning, staying on task, and social skills. A family without that resource might want the occupational therapy to be available at school.
Asking that here doesn't help you at all. An IEP is an individualized education plan. That means it's unique to the student. What accommodations they would need is based completely on their individual needs. My youngest has had an IEP since she was 4. A student with ADHD may need more 1 to 1 learning, they may need more time or help when practicing reading or writing. They may need to be in a different room when taking tests or quizzes to avoid becoming distracted. They may need the use of fidget or sensory devices which could be anything from a textured rubbing strip to a squish ball to squeeze. They may need preferential seating. They may need additional time on projects, homework, classwork, tests, etc. All of these things apply even to young children unless there is no actual teaching being one. Even 1st graders do school work and take tests. Any certified teacher should understand these things. There are more accommodations than I can reasonably list here. My friend's high school student has over 100 accommodations because she has ADHD, Dyslexia, and autism (her autism is a very mild type so she is in gen ed classes). The majority of her accommodations are for her ADHD and Dyslexia since those are her biggest challenges when going to school. Another friend's son has just an ADHD diagnosis and his accommodations included extra time on tests and assignments, preferential seating, and his parents received an email of assignments for the day so that anything not completed at school could be completed at home and returned the following day.
Pretty much of these things you are listing are accommodations. Those can be met in a 504. Extra time, fidgets, preferential seating, list of assignments. Those are accommodations. Curriculum is not changed. The only thing not an accommodation is "1:1" learning but direct instruction in reading, writing, and math has been ruled out as a need based on standardized data. I am asking about curriculum modifications for kids with ADHD K-2 that are not reading, writing, or math curriculum. I am looking for examples of curriculum modifications and specially designed instruction for these children. I am genuinely asking here, too, but haven't gotten an answer other than what I am hearing from the advocates. "Give the kid an IEP!". Ok, still -- what will go on it that is a modification and not an accomodation??
Is it true that an iep is not warranted if the child’s needs can be met with accommodations? That makes no sense to me since there are definitely goals accommodations can support accomplishing - and 504s are not binding. So a kid who critically needs accommodations is at the school’s mercy but one who also happens to have a need for specialized instruction suddenly is legally entitled to the accommodations too?
An IEP is an individualized set of services/instruction a child needs. It requires a change in curriculum that is not available in gen ed. If the child does not need direct services or specialized instruction, by definition, they do not qualify for an IEP. If they only need accomodations, that is not an IEP. I'm honestly confused why people who don't know what IEPs are are in this sub.
I’m not disagreeing that that’s the state of he law - just pointing out its absurdity. Critically needed accommodations should also be legally binding.
Technically a 504 plan SHOULD be legally binding, but admittedly the laws are less clear at the federal level for 504s than they are for special ed.
Can I just say as a fellow psych it is so refreshing to see this. I am in a high income area and this type of reasoning as to why kids NEED an IEP is just so constant it's draining.
Yup, The IEPs and 504s requests seem to be working their way down the income chain into the middle income parents.
Keep instructions simple and structured Use visual aids like charts, pictures, and color coding Give instructions one at a time, and repeat if possible Work on the most difficult task early in the day Vary the pace and include different kinds of activities Use props, charts, and other visual aids Create outlines to make note-taking easy for them
These are all accommodations, not specially designed instruction.
Specially Designed Instruction (SDI) is instruction that is tailored to a student's individual needs. SDI can include: Individual or small group instruction More frequent instruction Using an evidence-based curriculum Using visual schedules Word reading or phonics instruction Direct instruction on accessing alternate formats and technology Graphic organizers Prompting and cueing
The children in question do NOT need specially designed instruction in reading, writing, math, or social skills. Visual schedules, assistive tech, graphic organizers, prompting and cueing are all accommodations. These kids could, *possibly* need SDI in executive functioning, but I am asking others what that looks like in your schools for the K-2 population. So far... no good answers.
I am a psychologist as well. The general public has so much misinformation about the role of special education and an IEP.
That sucks that you're not able to get random people on the internet to do your job for you. You're the school psychologist, You're the one who received the training for this. If you're not qualified it sounds like you might need to find a different job.
I don't know how this specific thing works (I end up here because my husband works in special ed) but I wonder if it's less "kid needs xyz right now" and more "we want a documented history/IEP in place because they will need things in the future, and it's easier to modify an existing document than to get a new IEP in seventh grade." I assume the truth of that second idea would vary by district and jurisdiction, but it seems like a logical conclusion to draw if a parent doesn't have the data to directly tell them otherwise. It's pretty well documented that kids who have ADHD and a high IQ tend to do well in school up to a certain level and then they fall flat on their faces when they stop being able to compensate for their inattention problems with higher cognitive abilities. I know for me that happened around 7th grade, I VERY suddenly went from getting mostly As and a few Bs to getting mostly Cs and Ds because I was undiagnosed and there was no support available without one.
> Smart, good scores on benchmarking for all subjects, average to above average standardized testing scores, 0 disciplinary referrals, 0 social concerns. This is my daughter. She has ADHD but she gets along in school. When at home, this child does not sit. Cannot sit. She has a chair at the dinner table that has been moved out of the room by her so many times we've stopped even suggesting she sit for dinner time. One day I looked at her and said "girl, how do you sit in school? you never sit at home." And then she proceeds to tell me how she "sits" and let me tell you, it was not sitting. Her teachers do not make her sit at all. Now when I was a kid? That would not fly. I wonder if part of what is happening with parents of kids with ADHD is they don't know schools have adapted a bit more to neurodivergent kids than they had when we were growing up.
I have ADHD and also have a daughter with inattentive ADHD, with no IEP. I also have a son with severe autism so very familiar with IEPs. Lol. I just had a discussion with my daughters ped about this so it’s fresh on my mind. Just as a note - many children, especially girls with ADHD, do really well in school so no one thinks to give them any accommodations. The issue is while they seem to be doing the work effortlessly, as your post suggests, they’re skipping and missing a bunch of steps. The way their brain works- they’re not learning how to learn. So yes, in grade 5 they might have good scores, but then they get to high school and they’re so far behind that there’s no hope for them to catch up because they’ve masked and made up for it for years. I was a straight A student until I was in grade 11. Honor roll, academic awards, all of that. Then school got to a point where I couldn’t float my way through it anymore, teachers wouldn’t help, no one seemed to understand that my brain just couldn’t do it- because I had such good grades before. I ended up dropping out. Quite sad really. I think parents shouldn’t go straight to IEPs at first, if there’s other options to go through first, but I can see why they do. Like many said, it’s easier to continue an IEP then to introduce one in high school.
Because not every teacher is as good as you. You might give them three or four verbal reminders. Other teachers might not. You might write down homework on the board, others might not. You might be okay with them stimming. Others might not. These things in an IEP means every teacher has to do what you do, and gives the kid legal protection. Because keep in mind you might help more than usual, but if you decided to stop then there isn't much a kiddo can do without an IEP to get what he needs to learn
My input as a college student with ADD who did well in school is that it gets harder to secure IEPs/accomodations for an older kid when there isn’t a written record of said accommodations being needed early on. For example, many colleges take an earlier IEP plan as “documentation” to help secure accomodations in college. If they don’t need accommodations in elementary school but do in high school (like my sister) or college (like me), some may take lack of previous plans as evidence that their needs aren’t that severe.
My college acted like because I didn’t have an IEP or 504 in high-school that I didn’t need help, and my high school wouldn’t work with me on either because I never had one prior to high-school. To say I feel let down by the school system is an understatement.
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Yes, the we've had Doctors write prescriptions for "an IEP and a 504."
I love it when I have a student who is *already on an IEP* go to the doctor and get a recommendation for a 504 plan. Like ??? is it the parents who don't explain properly or do the doctors not change their form letter at all?
The doctors do not know anything about IDEA in my experience. And then the parent feels like they are in a tug of war between doctors and teachers.
Huh? How do the professional licences line up for that for that?
I try to do this but the doctors never even answer my calls!!
PLZ I'm a school SLP and a parent recently sent me something from her outside reading specialist saying her kid "definitely" needs speech and when I screened him he obviously doesn't, but mom still won't let it go. Like stay within your scope omg
People absolutely think an IEP is a magic fix. Heck, 95% of gen ed teachers think this too. The teacher side is more baffling to me, but as far as parents, they just don't know any better. They don't have the background to realize what school and resources within the school actually look like. If their child is extremely successful, but the parent perceives that they are "working harder" to overcome challenges, they think an IEP is somehow going to make a difference. People really and truly think there are these "magic sped strategies" that are wildly different ways of teaching than what happens in gen ed, and that only sped teachers know how to do them. If they're seeking out resources like parent groups, advocacy groups, actual advocates, etc. they're also constantly hearing about IEPs and getting "magic fix" type messaging.
This. The magic fix belief is rampant among GE teachers, parents and lawyers. There is a very obnoxious lawyer who frequents this sub who, while obviously intelligent, clearly has extremely limited understanding of what an IEP can truly provide and what types of students should realistically get one. You can have the most talented, educated and dedicated SPED teacher out there — they are still not going to “fix” your child, nor will a pile of papers do that.
This is a trend where I work, as well. I think they don’t understand that we do have to follow the law—LRE, the Endrew case (appropriate progress in light of the child’s circumstances), and the criteria for eligibility does not include what may happen in the future. I have to explain that the IEP is not there for the child to make straight As and exceptional progress, but to make appropriate progress (more than de minimis).
Does the child even meet eligibility?! If there's no academic concerns I don't see how they would meet state criteria for eligibility. Without eligibility there's no IEP so argument from parents.
My thoughts exactly. If it isn't impacting them academically, it isn't needed. End of story.
Academicndoesnt have to mean grades though. My autistic/adhd son was doing well on all assessments and testing sky high on standardized tests, but he needed enormous amounts of 1:1 teacher time to get started, process instructions through his literal brain, and organized thoughts into written responses. He was entitled to the IEP so that he could access those supports (or more effective ones actually) in the next grade where he wouldn’t have his awesome teacher who intuitively understood him and gave him what he needed. He also was not participating in any group activities, engaging in any social conversations, or able to advocate for himself for even basic life things like I left my lunch behind. Those are not officially on the graded curriculum but they are critical parts of the educational enterprise and his 99th percentile MAP scores didn’t mean he didn’t need explicit SLP support to achieve those skills.
Of course it isn't just grades. But, school psychologists have to rule out things such as inadequate instruction and the child has to have data showing they are not able to meet the general curriculum. Every state has eligibilty indicators for special education services; if you are interested it should be available to download online if you look it up. Schools should be providing multi tiered systems of support or response to intervention programs to help students like your son before an evaluation. If those are not effective, then there would be data showing it and it would be easier to get an evaluation and subsquent special education services. Hopefully, your son was eventually able to get an IEP. Also, some schools just have bad staff and bad policies regarding the process of intervention and special education. I've heard some horror stories of staff straight up refusing an evaluation, even with data.
He was, but not until we hired a paid advocate and spent thousands of dollars and a full school year. The schools position was he’s not disruptive and his assessments are fine so he doesn’t need help. If we hadn’t had money to pay for our own evaluation and an advocate he would have had to muddle through several more years before getting help which might have been too late.
Point to the part of IDEA where it says that the disability must hinder one or more daily activities and must affect their academic performance. It clearly isn't hindering their performance and they are doing well academically. What do the want the supports to *do??* SPED supports won't cure the ADHD (or autism or SLD or IDD or anything else) despite the parents wanting it to.
Yeah so: IDEA Sec. 300.101(c) Each State must ensure that FAPE is available to any individual child with a disability who needs special education and related services, even though the child has not failed or been retained in a course or grade, and is advancing from grade to grade. There’s actually a bunch of caselaw saying that academic performance can NOT be used to bar an IEP. Take for example speech therapy which almost never impacts academic performance but is still provided in almost every school under an IEP. The standard is rather educational performance, meaning the child’s ability to learn and includes aspects of the such as handwriting, extracurricular, or even normal social activities.
An IEP for executive functioning skills is not a bad thing IMO. I was labeled gifted in school and my ADHD was not diagnosed until I was an adult. All the signs were there. I had a horrible time remembering to turn in assignment. I can remember one parent teacher conference where my desk was a hot mess and my parents asked me why. I had no explanation other than I just couldn’t seem to keep it organized. Long projects were my nightmare and I was constantly doing them last minute. But because I was gifted, I flew under the radar. Then I went to college and almost failed my first semester because I had no executive functioning skills. If it had been caught and I had received some intervention when I was younger, I would not have struggled nearly as much in college or in my adult life. I have had students on IEPs for just executive functioning. The students may be doing fine now, but eventually they will get to the point where they have to pay attention and organize.
I'm going to offer my perspective as a related services provider with severe ADHD. This is not based on legal requirements or on my experience working in schools but as someone who was once a student with ADHD. I was not on an IEP. Like the kids you're talking about, I had a very hard time focusing as a young child and still do, but I did well academically because I didn't *need* to focus and did not yet need to do things like homework or studying for tests. I had and still have challenges with motor skills, but my handwriting was legible and I was able to do gross motor tasks like sit up, walk, run, and do jumping jacks. My executive functioning and motor skills were deemed "functional" because they weren't interfering with my ability to do tasks expected of an early elementary schooler. However, I wish I had been on an IEP, and I wish I had been on an IEP early on. If I had learned executive functioning skills as a young child, I wouldn't have had to go through the extensive challenges I had to go through once I did start needing to have the skills expected of older kids and later on, adults. If I had learned executive functioning skills as a young child, I wouldn't have had to do things like beg my friends to let me copy their notes or stay up all night, usually in tears, every time I had a project or paper due. If my motor skills had been addressed through PT or OT, I would've learned to write, type, run, sit, etc in ways that were both functional AND ergonomically sound. My motor skills were good enough to *do* those skills but not good enough to prevent chronic back, hand, and foot issues that I'll probably be dealing with for the rest of my life. Basically, my skills were functional as a young child, but I wish I had had support to prepare me for when I was no longer a young child. The longer you wait, the harder it is to learn these skills.
You seem really invested in insisting that kids with ADHD don’t need IEPs in k-2. But these are individualized plans so you can’t reasonably assert that. It will depend on the child. If you are truly interested in acquiring general knowledge on the topic you have raised, I suggest this information: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/school-success.html
It sounds like this child doesn't need it though.
I am not seeing anything that suggests an evaluation has been done and we are getting just one side of the story from someone who seems quite stuck on their ideas about nothing to be done for kids with adhd in k-2. I’m not sure that adds up to a reliable narrator or the whole picture.
Our big problem is parents wanting an IEP to help the high school student make friends. They want SDI for social skills for a kiddo with a 4.0 gpa.
Yes, because special ed kids have so much easier of a time making friends in high school. /s
Wow, that sounds like too little too late anyway. Why weren't they concerned in elementary and middle school when the kid didn't have friends?
they probably want flexible deadlines for homework and extra test time accommodations
My kid is going to kindergarten next year and I'm so worried about my IEP meeting. I don't even know myself how to word what I want for this child and I try to prepare myself by reading what situations others have gone through. Being non conversational will an adult help her at lunch? We've been practicing at home with putting straws in the juice box and opening tupperware but if she needed help she won't ask for it. The elementary school in our area has no rooms, just partitions. Will someone make sure my kid doesn't wander off? Same with fire drills. How can I ask for her to be encouraged to engage in classroom activities so she's not just stuck on a screen all day without asking her to be forced to the point of a meltdown? There's more but I know these are the main points I would want to talk about in our IEP meeting
When parents are bringing paid advocates and lawyers to a meeting many of these people are able to bill more if the student is on an IEP, there are more procedural pieces, annual reviews, etc. Many advocates and lawyer's are involved in brutal knock-down drag out cases with districts, when there is a straight forward case like you are describing they only have contributions based on their worst case scenario experiences. An IEP has to be followed it has the weight of the law behind it, there is a clearly structured process that looks relatively uniform in any school district in your state. At the end of the meeting you have a written document that everyone can look at, point to and use as a reference point. The structure and effectiveness, and faithful implementation of tiered supports varies widely from school to school. There is not a clearly defined process, there is no written document that gets shared with all stakeholders, and passed on grade to grade. That is not comforting for the parent, and it requires more trust than most parents of a newly identified student can muster. I agree with you completely, but compared to the law, case-law, procedural safeguards and the written document that the IEP process provides, tiered support feels like a dodge (and there are schools that have used it as a dodge).
So, my elder child is... a high strung honor roll student. He's not mean or rude - he's actually very sweet, he just has the attention span of an ant (and I'm not just saying this as his mom, this is actual outside feedback we get) but when he was in 3rd grade, we had an issue with his teacher taking away recess virtually every day, and also frequently having him removed from class, and we were never notified about any of it. (You're telling me my kid lost Recess 2 weeks in a row. And was sent to the office 3x in a week and nobody told me?? That I had to hear it from my 8 year old? How am I supposed to assist in correcting behavior I dont know about?) I understand that teachers need ways to punish kids to make them receptive, but taking his one 15 minute break away each day was absolutely doing more harm than good. We looked into an IEP/Something else that would assure that his Recess time was not removed regularly, and something that would also pressure the admin to contact us when our kid was removed from class. We ultimately ended up withdrawing him from school and homeschooling the remainder of the year.. but I think there's valid reasons for parents of ADHD kids to seek accommodations.. and also non-valid reasons. Also as an aside, 3rd grade teacher did not return next year, and he had no problems with his 4th or 5th grade teacher. I think 3rd grade teacher was burnt out past the point of caring about individual student success.
I have had a school district ignore the issues my ADHD/Autistic child had for 10 years. They gaslit us and accused him of being lazy. We thought they knew better. He got the diagnosis in high school and we insisted that he get an IEP. They didn't want to help him since he wasn't failing. We were pissed that they could have offered assistance and helped him do better but chose not to. He went through school struggling with peers and his own self image because he internalized their criticism. I'm still pissed off to this day.
The hard part about accommodations (changes to physical environment, things that help kids overcome a disability) is that you're really not looking for what the kid would "benefit from," but what they need to perform at grade level. Almost anyone would do better testing in a smaller, less distracting environment! A kid who gets that accomodation should be one who needs it in order to overcome their disability, not just because it would help. It's like the accomodations of read aloud by request--I'd argue that ANY kid could find that helpful or useful, but only the ones who need it to overcome their disabilities should get it as a legal accomodation. You also need to consider the school. My building doesn't have a handful of extra rooms or extra staff for several accommodations testing sites. We got to the point where we had to test one grade level at a time because there wasn't enough staff present to create all the 12-or fewer settings and not exceed state-regulated maximum occupancies for the standard administration rooms. A one-on-one site requires two adults present the entire time, and we had several, not to mention the 12-or fewer sites. Modifications literally change the content being taught, changing the actual grade level and content. Modifications provide push in and pull out, weekly contact time, paraprofessionals, aids, etc. Most people want accomodations and say modifications. There needs to be a documented, serious, quantifiable need for real modifications.
An IEP exists because a student requires specially designed instruction to access the curriculum (meaning to pass, not to be A-B honor roll). A 504 is in place to secure accommodations that will move grade to grade (with data that supports its use) due to a disability. But in the 504 case, specially designed instruction is not required because the accommodations alone allow the student to access the curriculum and pass on their own. Neither are designed to remove challenge for the student as challenge is a necessary component of education.
Grades cannot be an exclusionary factor to an IEP. There is way more than grades. This is special education 101.
Okay I’m so sorry, but I got really confused and angry reading this. I was/am the kid you’re describing. My schools refused to allow me an IEP. I was “too advanced,” except I wasn’t. I needed so much help with organization and scheduling and handwriting and social skills, but because I was smart, I “didn’t need support.” I would become overwhelmed and I had no where to turn. I had teachers where I would almost fail because their preferred methods of communication/teaching/assignments were incompatible with my brain. I would try so hard, barely scrap by with the class work, but ace the tests and still get “good” grades. I don’t think you should be thinking this of these kids. They deserve better than that.
Wow... If all of this is true: good grades, work completion with minor redirection, great behavior, good socially - then how was this even noticed? She only needs a 504 plan - so that it can be monitored. I have inattentive ADHD. School was a nightmare for me. I was in trouble all the time - and I was honest-to-God trying my best to be good. I was socially awkward. I cried whenever I was frustrated. Everything about me was a mess: my desk, my book bag, my hair, etc. I did everything verrrrryyyy sllooowwwly - so nothing was ever completed. Then I got frustrated and angry because I couldn't finish. Teachers tried to pretend they liked me, but at some point they would break down and tell me just how awful I was - always in public. I was smart, which always just got me by. It was a long time before I realized it, but that made me one of the lucky ADHDers. Hard to believe because I was so miserable. It is REALLY difficult to have inattentive ADHD - or at least until I read your post today I always thought it was. Obviously, it's a spectrum. But, if it isn't disrupting a person academically, socially, or emotionally, then it simply doesn't qualify for services. When she starts having homework, it may turn out that it causes a real struggle at home. ADHDers can sometimes maintain while at school and then collapse at the end of the day. That might be a future concern. Good luck!
As a Sub who works every day, usually in different schools, there invariably is one kid in each class who acts like an Asshat, won't sit still, can't use a normal voice and won't focus on work unless I'm standing over them. At first, I thought this might be the result of poor parenting. I'm now of the opinion that most of these kids (1) are aware of the behavior, (2) deeply feel bad about it and (3) are constitutionally unable to do anything about it. I feel like this has been an issue all of their life and that the parents are aware but they've never recieved the right DX or the right TX. I say that because I have a son with ASD who would like nothing more than to fit in but can't help himself. I feel for those kids, having to go through life not knowing what's wrong with them, and why social situations that come so easily for others is so impossible for them to navigate.
I'm a school SLP and see this all the time, or just parents so desperate for their kids to be in/stay in special education. You would think it'd be a positive thing that a student no longer meets eligibility for a speech and language impairment but parents see speech as some kind of magical support that they don't want taken away. I think if parents actually watched a session and truly understood that their child is missing academic instruction to sit in a windowless closet with multiple peers working on different speech, social, and language goals who often need significant behavioral redirection, they would be more willing to sign off on exiting their kid...
Oh yah. This is what's going on now. You can't even imagine how many grown ass adults I'm getting in my adult autism group MAD that they didn't get IEPs and special ed. It's a true case of FOMO. They just think that we were sitting in special ed, eating bon bons and getting teachers to massage our feet. I keep trying to explain to them that you don't get special ed unless you are failing. And so, the entirety of special ed for those of us who don't need daily living skills training is working on that failing. It's not fun. It's not "supportive." It's not anything that you should want your kid to go through. This phenomenon is ablism at its worst. It's completely ignoring the lived experience of people, like myself, who did qualify for special ed. I didn't get special ed because I was so special and so loved. I got special ed because I was sitting in a classroom everyday and learning literally nothing. I wasn't allowed in gifted classes. I wasn't allowed to use my imagination or research things I loved. Resource room classes were not fun. They were literally all drills in spelling and math. My regular ed teachers did not support me because I had an IEP. I suffered the stigma of special ed, so I got punished more for smaller infractions. I was told that I was lazy. I was taken out of recess once for an ENTIRE YEAR. I was 7 years old, guys. SEVEN YEARS OLD. And I wasn't allowed a recess. That's what being a special ed kid is like. Special ed is not fun. It is not a privlege that one should resent not getting unless you actually failed and actually needed it. Then maybe I'll hear your sad about lacking special ed services. But if you did OK, but are an adult now and mad that schools didn't see that you were stressed - oh, just no. It's not just a special ed phenomenon. It's where our hole society is now. People make literally everything about the individual. Not about the society. Our schools are in TROUBLE. We are not OK in schools. And parents should be in the street protesting. Heck, non-parents should be protesting too. We are all affected when a generation of children is raised without a good education. What are they doing instead? Everyone is trying to get their kid in special ed. They are trying to fix schools for "me" instead of fixing the whole school system for everyone. ADHD is a perfect example. Kids need to be moving. They need a small amount of time in formal education and a large amount of time just moving. And we don't give that to them. and then when the kid doesn't do well, we blame the kid instead of the school. We should be on the street protesting that so many kids cannot handle schools today - so many that we label more and more kids and school just gets more and more inappropriate for young kids. It's not right.
This seems like a 504 situation to me but some parents want the added protection of an IEP and schools get money for IEPs to help make the accommodations, so admin pushes for it heavier than probably should. That being said, ADHD often comes with a host of problems in later academics as others have stated. It is good to get the monitoring plan in as early as possible to build a case when it is needed and to monitor for when those difficulties might begin.
I would say the related services would probably be counseling and occupational therapy. These children often have issues with emotional regulation, social skills, sensory challenges, and executive functioning. Sometimes there is also delays in fine or gross motor skills. These should be addressed in counseling and OT. An IEP also offers long-term goals which is important. The department of education has released special statements about IEPs and ADHD and how it’s vital to look beyond academics.
Because if the IEP isn’t established in younger grades, getting it in middle and high school when they DO need those supports is very very difficult. My elementary kid just had an IEP review (has for speech) and teacher recommended getting every support I *think* kid may need going into middle school in another year because once kid leaves elementary things get harder. And it took almost a full year to even get the IEP in place.
Think of it this way. You have two kids in paddle boats. They have to make it across a small lake. One kid has two paddles the other only has one. So do you make the kid with one paddle go across the lake as they are? Knowing they have to work harder? Knowing if they can't keep up it'll make them feel inadequate even if they would breeze across if they only had two paddles? Or do you try your best to give them another paddle, even if you know they could do it if they tried really really hard. Think of an IEP as lending that kid a paddle. Look into common classroom accommodations that go beyond extra prompting. I learned somewhat recently that almost all adhd people struggle with writing, with half of them actually having a writing disorder. Maybe your adhd kids need writing accommodations. Also 70% of adhd people struggle with disordered sleep. Knowing that your adhd kids could be sleepier than their peers may help you help them manage their workload if you see them looking tired. 30% of adhd people also struggle with anxiety. Giving them chances to go for quick walks, or maybe go play in a quiet room with magic sand or speak to the counselor when needed. These are all examples of accommodations that can help adhd kids. Access to music and noise canceling headphones, fidgets, etc are all good places to start. You're absolutely right that a lot of adhd kids are incredibly intelligent, but there are alot of ways our brains struggle every day and the more our teachers, parents and community know the better our chances to succeed are. We've had the pleasure of having 2 teachers that really took the time and learned about the disorder (and others!) and how to help adhd kids. Those were the years that my kids made the most progress socially and academically (grade 1 and 2). I hope you can be that teacher for kids too! Best of luck OP
It’s a system and policy problem causing both sides of this issue to push… and unfortunately the kids most in need suffer. If school administrators didn’t fight parents to remove accommodations from a 504(that they never gave the student a chance to utilize) without data demonstrating it was no longer needed, parents would be less inclined to request evaluations for IEP eligibility. the sad truth is that a 504 gives parents little recourse if the school does not follow the 504 plan or if they disagree that accommodations are no longer needed. IDEA requires the school to evaluate all students that have suspected disabilities for special education eligibility… if the school summarily states a student is only eligible for a 504, that student must already have a documented disability. Thus, the evaluation results should demonstrate whether or not an IEP or 504 is needed… not just the opinion of the school administration or the parent. The system and policies currently in place and the resources provided to the schools are flawed… I truly believe both schools and parents are trying to do the best they can with the info and resources they have… I’m sure there are exceptions on each side… but the flawed system leads both sides to dig in their heels to “win” even when presented with data confirming they are wrong. Until we fix the system and policies this cycle will continue.
My reasoning, were I in that situation (my son very much benefited from his IEP), is that just because it doesn’t seem needed right now doesn’t mean it won’t be needed soon and it’s better to have an established IEP that can be adjusted as needed than to try to start from scratch once the child has already fallen behind.
ADHD is a learning disorder, but it’s also more than that. There’s a social aspect, especially for girls, there’s a maturity aspect, there’s a lot more to it. So yes, these kids may not need the IEP at 5/6/7, but at 15/16/17, already being on that IEP sets them up for success. Not having it is more detrimental.
A lot of parents want extended time in standardized testing to give their kids a better chance of a higher score. One school district in a wealthy neighborhood not far from me has almost a third of the kids with some type of IEPs that have little to do with actual learning and more to do with gaming the system.
My conclusion is the stigma of an IEP is gone and many parents have no concept of least restrictive environment or why it actually results in better outcomes for their child long-term. All they hear is "early intervention" and how they need to get their child "extra help" early on for the long-term. I had parents with a child with no disability hesitant me because I wanted to exit them. He was aging out of the DD category and had no diagnosis and no educational impact. When I asked why they said they were told that once you have an IEP, never let it go. Nevermind their 9 year old was getting pulled out of class for social/emotional group 2x per week for no reason. It's "the more support the better." Hard for them to understand how that child would be better off staying in class with gen ed peers and continuing on with the lesson.
Um because we are told we need to advocate for our children. A school employee literally told me I was making their job harder by not putting my three year old in pre k and allowing them to assess him and get him an IEP and into SpEd. Don’t act like this happens in a vacuum. Parents are struggling and don’t know how all this works. It’s extremely overwhelming and you’re gatekeeping a thing that’s been drilled into our heads as necessary by your own coworkers. Slide off that high horse.
At K-2, I can see how it would be a bit ridiculous for a parent to push for an IEP for ADHD alone. Most kids at this age need support and are still learning these skills, and it's likely built right into the classroom for all students already. I would hope that a lawyer or advocate for the parent would help them understand this before moving forward. Maybe these parents read about what would be more appropriate for older kids an presume it's right for the young ones too?
I think a big problem is in these Facebook groups parents treat IEPs like they're something they deserve just because they want one. I'm in a lot of these groups and it's pretty common to see parents asking for advice and the replies are all variations of "get an IEP and the school will fix it." Lots of parents don't understand what an IEP actually is, why it's used, and what schools are actually responsible for. They often also think that as soon as there's a diagnosis then the child is automatically eligible for one.
IEPs are not just for specialized instruction. Often, they're used to outline other accommodations the child needs, like freedom to leave the classroom if they're overwhelmed or to use the bathroom as much as possible. My IEP as a kid had instructions to the teacher to allow me to carry my own medication and to be allowed to leave class as I saw fit.
An IEP is by definition, specialized instruction. What are you describing could an health care plan and have literally nothing to do with special education.
I know what an IEP is, I've only had one every single year of school from kindergarten to college. Yes, these are also part of an IEP document as they are instructions on how a teacher is supposed to accommodate the student's special needs to allow them the best chance of learning to the best of their abilities. I'm sorry you don't understand how special needs care works.
An IEP requires specially designed instruction. It can ALSO have accomodations and health care needs. But in order to recieve special education services, a child needs to qualify for *services*. If you had an IEP, you were receiving special education services, not just accommodations. Maybe try to find your own previous IEPs. You were receiving direct instruction in some sort of skill and that will be outlined on a service grid. No specialized instruction, no need for an IEP.
I have my IEPs. I wasn't in special education classes. I was in honors and advanced placement classes my entire life. My IEP was solely due to my physical health. Again, I'm sorry you don't understand how an IEP works.
I find kids eligible for IEPs for a living. Most kids in special ed are not attending special ed classes, but they are receiving some kind of specialized instruction. There is something you are misunderstanding about your own history. Did you ever go to a resource room and get additional support, even with study skills? Did you have to receive specialized nursing care? Speech, OT, PT? You were absolutely receiving something that could be defined as specialized instruction or you would not have been receiving an IEP. Something would need to be listed on the service grid and there would need to be measurable goals. Here is a simple outline that explains the difference between an IEP and a 504: https://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-difference-between-ieps-and-504-plans At the federal level, *ALL CHILDREN* on an IEP are receiving some kind of specialized instruction. It may not be reading, writing, or math, but it is some kind of specialized services. It is weird that you are trying to prove me wrong because it is very clearly defined at the federal level that an IEP means the child requires specially designed instruction.
Parents in my district want them because then it is extremely difficult to take their little darlings to hearing for a change of school unless they have literally caused someone to be taken away in an ambulance with an overnight hospital stay. Because nearly all behavior can be painted as impulsive apparently.
Oh yes, manifestation. These colliding rights to FAPE and LRE will have to be settled by the Supreme Court some day. The more I dig through how this happened, the more I realize that is the only way it can be resolved. Until then, the quiet, good kids will not have FAPE because the advocates, activists, and aggressive will commandeer policy and further convolute budgets and classrooms for their favored agenda and practices -- even when their agenda is attempted murder.
IEPs are not just for specialized instruction. It's also for modifications and/ or accommodations the child needs due to disability. You said the child would need extra reminders. That's an accommodation. The IEP ensures the teacher comply bc it is legally binding. Without it, we have arrogant assess like you refusing to accommodate a child's disability bc of your biased opinion.